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S4 - THE ROBERT LAZAR STORY
CALENDAR -- AUGUST 1988 THROUGH AUGUST 1989
(CONTINUATION OF TAPE 6 -- SIDE A)
SEPTEMBER 4, 1988
Tracy's 2nd solo cross-country flight. She was working on her pilot's
SEPTEMBER 7, 1988
Joe, the guy I knew and worked with in Los Alamos, came to visit. And left
on the 10th.
[Groom Lake = 125 miles. This is just a mileage note. It doesn't occur on
this date, it's a note to myself how far the drive was... that was one of my
excursions up there. There will be some deceiving stuff on the calendar
intentionally. We'll run into other stuff like this.]
SEPTEMBER 13, 1988
Testing some fireworks at the drylake about twenty minutes away. [As a side
note, this is how I spent a lot of my thinking time, more or less, was just
driving up there alone because it's totally isolated. There's no one there...
there's absolutely no sound... and frankly it looks like a different planet.
Why shooting off fireworks is relaxing, but it's just one of those things.]
Call Vinny, a guy that was doing some work for me on the body of the jetcar
More insignificant stuff here -- ordering chemicals for Desert Blast.
UFO Film is a note to myself to get a film John Lear gave me out of the
house. He gave me a bunch of documents, after I had first met him. Then I
began to wonder how intelligent it was keeping that stuff around should
there be another surprise visit, more or less.
OCTOBER 1, 1988
Tracy becomes a pilot. [I met Tracy in Los Alamos and she was basically
doing nothing. She was just working at Pizza Huts and things like that...
and didn't have many friends up there... nothing was really going on and she
moved out here into a strange environment and we frequently went to air
shows and she got a real kick out of that... so, I paid for her to take one
of those trial flights and she fell in love with it... so, she started
taking lessons. They let her work on the weekends, not as a secretary, but
something there, to kind of work it off and she got away kind of easy. We
got married here. After I left Los Alamos I was with my first wife.]
OCTOBER 4, 1988
John Lear at 8pm [What's happening here is, I'm trying to show that I knew
John Lear from a long time ago. And I think you're going to see something
really obvious, if I remember... I'll start calling John something else...
well, let me just go through it, instead of looking ahead. Anyway... that
has nothing to do with that date.]
Q: In this time period, here we are in the beginning of October, you're
running your business.
L: Right, businesses are running fine.
Q: Making probes...
L: Making probes... doing the photo business and basically I was looking for
something to do to give Tracy... so we could have two incomes... and Tracy
would be working the photos and I would go off full time and work somewhere
else and get something a little more mentally stimulating.
Where the World Series started.
OCTOBER 14, 1988
UFO Cover-up [This is actually on that date... at Shelly's with Jim. This
was interesting... and Jim will recall this day... he came over... now,
before this I didn't know who John Lear was and had an article in the paper
about some guy who said the aliens are here and they're taking over and all
that stuff and is giving lectures at the library and Jim brought it over and
showed it to me and Jim was thinking about going there and wanted to know if
I wanted to go with him and I told him he was crazy... and what a total
waste of time. And he said, well, I'm going to go and I said, okay, fine...
he said why don't you come over tonight cause the guy's going to be on TV.
So, I think, this is the first time I saw anything and it was some special
that was on TV about people being abducted and stuff like that and I don't
remember exactly what was going on in there, but John was telling his normal
UFO story and there were a couple of other people... you know... I've been
abducted... so, that was the first time I'd seen John on TV.]
OCTOBER 15, 1988
Tracy's dad comes to visit. [Which is interesting, about a month later...
there's something here about me sending resumes out -- mid- October.]
Q: Now Tracy's dad lives in Los Alamos.
Q: Works at the lab there or does something else?
L: No, he works at the lab... explosives.
OCTOBER 19, 1988
Jim to Tonapa. [Tracy's dad leaves and Jim is now working up at the test
site on the Stealth... I don't know if that was the first time he'd been up
there... but that's when he's starting his, more or less, secret work.]
There was something here I crossed out and then wrote John Lear at 4:30.
(AT THIS POINT THE DOORBELL RINGS AND GENE ARRIVES)
G: John Lear was on TV and we were making fun of him...
L: In fact I just found that day when he was on...
G: On "On The Record"?
L: Whatever it was.
G: He was on "On The Record" with George in August of '88, wasn't he?
L: Maybe? August isn't on here.
Q: So you were sitting around making fun of the guy talking about UFO's...
L: You can't believe the stuff this guy was saying...
G: Well, it was interesting... Lear comes off very respectable... he looks
very distinguished... white hair... the guy's an airline captain, son of
Bill Lear, who holds all these flying records, and he commands a measure of
respect, so he can get people's attention initially, in fact, some of the
first things that we checked out, for instance, Lear was talking about the
U.S. government had this alien held hostage and he was called EBE-3,
Extraterrestrial Biological Entity-3, and he said he was housed in a
facility called YY-2 in Los Alamos, which was a facility with double-fairday
(sp?) shielding... and since Bob had friends that worked down there he could
check and see if this guy knew what he was talking about or not. And there
was a YY-2 facility, but they weren't holding any aliens. It was a mail
stop. I can't remember what else he said, so... it was a good avenue to see
if this guy had anything going... also he said Jackie Gleason was a buddy of
Richard Nixon's and was a major contributor to the Republican Party and that
Nixon had gotten Gleason into CIA Headquarters in Langley, Virginia and
shown Jackie Gleason an alien body they kept on ice there... so, all this
stuff sounds feasible, in fact, this made Bob actually invent the
terminology -- Learonym... as opposed to synonym... homonym... a Learonym
sounds like it's something that could have happened, but didn't.
L: And John is familiar with this... but you're speaking of the stuff that
is half-way reasonable...
G: Well, right, right... if you're an innocent by-stander and you see this
guy on television, you would lend him your ear and then investigate... and
there's some value to that... because people will go and investigate and
find out he's crazy, but that maybe there is a body of information there
they should examine so... did you tell him about some of Lear's outrageous
L: I couldn't remember...
Q: Tell me some of it.
G: Lear said there was a roof on Area 51... a five mile by five mile roof...
it was a dome over this... how did the jets get through it anyway?
L: The remote control...
G: Yeah, the theory... see, some abductees... Whitley Striber, amongst
others, said that these aliens would jam these needle-like things up their
nose or back behind their ears and there were these little balls that they
couldn't ascertain on x-ray whether there was anything in there or there
were strange things in people's heads... and these were alleged receivers
and transmitters, I guess, where aliens could communicate with the people
without going through their outer ear.
Q: John actually believes this...
G: Not only that... but there were like a million people that had been
abducted and tagged... they call that being tagged... and those that were
tagged, at a specific future date, when the aliens wanted them to act a
certain way, that they would be activated and then the aliens could control
these people with a remote... TV remote controller device.
Q: That's interesting.
G: And the Stealth fighter... did you tell him about the Stealth fighter...
This was before the Stealth was made public and Lear... when Lear first met
Bob, also, he didn't know who Bob was and that Bob knew all this stuff and
Lear was telling him a story that the way the Stealth fighter achieved its
stealthness was that it had LCD all over the top and bottom and, say, if you
were a jet flying above a Stealth fighter, there were cameras on the Stealth
fighter that would look at the sky and the LCD's... no, excuse me, look at
the ground... and the LCD's would then make the top of the Stealth fighter
look like the ground... so if you're in the jet looking down, it would blend
in with the ground beneath it and if you're in a jet looking up at it it
will then exhibit the sky... and that's when Bob learned that LCD's were
highly radar reflective. Bob was actually the first one who took exception
to everything... literally everything... Lear said... and it was a great
comedy show... cause this guy got away with murder prior to that.
L: He's a unique guy.
OCTOBER 23, 1988
Fly to Ballhead... oh, that's just flying with Tracy. [Who is listed on here
as Jackie, by the way. Her name's Tracy Jacqueline.]
OCTOBER 25, 1988
EG&G -- okay this must be the first interview.
Q: I didn't see a Teller call.
L: No, Teller calls all the way down here. No, no this is me dropping the
resume off. I dropped it off on the 25th of October. And like I said, there
was going to be a place where I sent out resumes... they probably all went
out around this day.
Q: Now, Bob, when you got a resume to EG&G, did you know what kind of work
they were doing? Or did someone indicate to you.
L: No, I brought them everywhere. EG&G was here... so I hand delivered it
there. But there was nothing special about it.
Q: What did you know about them?
L: Ahh, that they mainly dealt with high speed measurement is all I knew EG&G
did... and that's how the company was started really... was just
photographing high speed events. And, working at the test site, I thought
they were just involved with high speed data recovery from nuclear devices...
and I said, well, that's acceptable... I'll work there.
G: That's pretty common knowledge in the Las Vegas area... they're a major
employer or a conduit to employment at the Nevada test site even though
there's a lot of contractors out there... EG&G is the most well known,
probably, to the Las Vegas general public, because of news broadcasts.
OCTOBER 27, 1988
Talk about stuff.
G: That's clear.
L: Like I said, this is even going to confuse me.
Q: That's okay... this is good.
Stu and Melissa come to visit again. They leave the day after.
L: Now we're in November. There's another random John Lehr down. That's
G: You're in November?
L: November... the beginning of November.
G: Because George did another "On The Record"... remember, he did a two-parter
and then Lear did a two-parter with Bill Cooper.
Q: Geez... he does have a good memory. You can remember that? From '88. You
ask me where I was in '88, I'd have to sit and think a minute.
G: Well, I had gone through this before... were you aware there was a movie
deal before this?
G: Okay... and a screenwriter before... in fact, I understand that it's
illegal or improper, but when you get all this done and everything and
you're done and everything is totally proper... we'd love you to read this
great screenplay this other guy wrote...
Q: I appreciate the fact that you know I can't read it now...
G: But someday you can... and when you can...
Q: Someday I can...
G: And when you can, I would like you to reflect and say how did this guy
get this story out of this...
Q: Well, I'll simply say that Bob told him the story... that it was all
L: Carol's birthday... oh, my sister... okay.
G: I saw that, too, and I thought, boy is that strange.
NOVEMBER 17, 1988
L: See, I wonder if I'm screwing myself up here with my own...
Q: It's okay... it's absolutely okay...
L: Linda Howe... I didn't know about Linda Howe for... on the 17th of
Q: Who was Linda Howe?
G: Cattle mutilation queen... on a video called "The Strange Harvest" back
in '79 or '80...
Q: Oh, I have that book... I believe I have that...
G: "The Strange Harvest" was the video that was much better than the book.
L: Oh, move into large bedroom...
G: You talk about recording an insignificant event on your calendar... oh,
is that when you disassembled the lab in the master bedroom and made a
NOVEMBER 29, 1988
L: Okay, Teller called the 29th.
Q: Tell me what he said again? It was a short call, evidently.
L: It was a short call. He recalled our meeting in Los Alamos and basically
said, there might be someone who might be interested in you and...
G: You want me to add if I remember anything?
Q: Chime in.
L: 'Cause Gene was around at that time...
G: When Edward Teller called, I said, who's Edward Teller... but Teller said
that he was no longer active and only now worked in a chief consultant
L: Right. This is great.
G: And so he couldn't directly give you a job... but he could give you the
number of a guy you could get in contact with here in Las Vegas... and he
gave you a number. And I don't know what else you talked about...
L: That's better than I remembered it... yet it happened to me.
Q: Did you call the guy?
Q: Evidently. Did you call him right away or did you wait...
L: Yeah, I called him right away and that's why a couple of days later on...
December 1, Thursday, I already had an interview.
Q: Okay, now, here's an important question... when you called the fellow at
EG&G... you called whom?
L: I don't remember the guy's name... he wasn't a player.
Q: Was he one of the gentlemen in the meeting on the panel... when you went
Q: Did he know you when you called?
L: Yes. Teller had already spoken to him.
Q: So he said, thank you very much for calling...
G: Were you aware that this guy actually worked for EG&G?
L: No, I called EG&G because that's where the phone rang and that's where we
met... but they talked so lowly about the EG&G people and personnel... I
have a hard time believing that anyone had anything to do with EG&G.
Q: So, this guy said come on in on December 1st.
Q: So this was your first interview there.
L: That's right.
DECEMBER 1, 1988
First interview EG&G.
Q: And this is where he said, you're over-qualified... we don't have
L: Right. But we might have something in the near future. Which was probably
a day or two after. Okay, I went out... that's where the other interview was...
now why that's not written down, I don't know. Unless something is written
here, which is scribbled out... cause that's about where it should have
happened. It was about a day after.
Q: They called you back and said would you come in that day?
L: Right. And that's when the big interview was... wait, that's a Saturday...
Q: Well, that's okay... we'll say a day or two later.
L: It might have been Monday the 5th... and the only reason it's not written
down is cause we thought Tracy was pregnant that day... That's a PRG=1.
G: Oh, Preg One, that's right.
L: Then there's doctor stuff, so... and the day doesn't seem to start till
three o'clock, so that makes sense to me.
Q: Now, would they have called you that morning and asked if you could come
in that day.
L: Yeah... that's exactly the way everything operated there... just like
with the phone calls.
DECEMBER 6, 1988
L: The following day the 6th was another short interview... meeting people
and then finally going up there.
Q: This is the day they flew you up there... the sixth... one day after the
L: That doesn't make sense. This is the day that I went there. I remember
writing "Trip to Nowhere" on there.
G: That's when you went to S4 the first time.
L: Yeah, this is the first trip to Area 51.
G: Are you sure... where was the EG&G...
G: That's EG&G at four... where's the EG&G over here?
G: Wow... that had to be dropping the resume off.
L: Yeah, I know... that's when the resume...
G: Well, what was this on the 28th?
L: See, I don't know.
G: Looks like you scribbled out EG&G.
L: It was always the day before Teller called, though.
Q: Well, this will still work... you can wrestle with your memories and
say... was that right or wrong... no one's going to really be too interested
L: Well, obviously this is the day I went up... this was the day of the
first interview... the second interview was somewhere in there...
Q: Trip to Nowhere is December 6th... and that's about a four o'clock flight
Q: And they called you at two... three?
L: Right before two o'clock.
Q: Okay. Now, you had no idea they were going to call you, right?
L: Right. I had no idea at all.
Q: Okay. Did you take anything or just your two shoes... you just went down
to the airport and...
L: Just went there...
Q: And they told you to get on the airplane and...
L: Well, no, that was what part of the time was at EG&G... they said your
job's going to take place mainly at a remote area up within the confines of
a test site... you'll go up there and we'll show you around... it didn't
seem like anything unusual to me.
Q: Were you the only person who was giving that little briefing?
L: Yeah, there was no... Dennis came with me. That was the first meeting...
Q: You and Dennis and the person giving you the briefing?
Q: And you and Dennis got on the airplane and there were some others on the
Q: Okay. Now, that was the second time you were with Dennis?
L: Right. Aside from the big interview... that was the first time I went
anywhere with Dennis. People visiting... Tracy's not pregnant.
DECEMBER 11, 1988
Fireworks show... in the middle of December.
G: An unusual fireworks show.
L: Boy, that's odd.
G: But that's true... because remember you and Tracy and I went up on one (UNCLEAR)...
so you were preparing for something, but I don't know what it was.
DECEMBER 14, 1988
L: Black and white Groom Lake photo done. I think this is when I blew up a
photo of Groom Lake to see...
G: That was that old photo of Groom Lake from the '60's or something...
L: Right... I had just gotten back from there about a week ago...
Q: And you wanted to see what?
L: If it had changed...
Q: Well, it sounds to me like you were interested in seeing where you were
Q: Where did that photograph come from that you blew up? That negative?
L: Where did that come from?
Q: That's okay... that's interesting... so you were in the darkroom taking a
look at where you were.
G: I think you made a negative from another photo and enlarged that negative
of that photo... you know what I mean... I don't think you had access to a
G: I think we had gotten another picture from somewhere and he made a
negative and then enlarged that...
L: I was trying to look for the building that I went in...
Q: Okay. Was it there?
L: I couldn't tell. It was just too big.
Q: When you got off the airplane up there, what did they do... did they just
drop you on an airstrip and you walk off into a receiving area...
L: No... there's like a little electric... not a golf cart thing... but one
that seats several people... like a tour bus type of thing... but all open
and that just takes you from the strip to the last couple of buildings on
Q: People get off at different points...
L: No, they all pile on that and you go into this big cafeteria type area...
Q: Where there machines that... candy machines...
L: Yeah... there were machines, but there's also a buffet type thing.
DECEMBER 20, 1988
L: The Alpha Probe Contract was renewed on the 20th. Tracy's dad visits on
the 23rd... her sister comes in on the 26th... Robin... this is when, now
that I have my job, I'm training Wayne's wife, 'cause Tracy decided she no
longer wanted to do photos... training Wayne's wife how to do photos... so...
DECEMBER 26-30, 1988
L: Within the 26th through the 30th is when Thigpen showed up. Cause Robin
was here and so was Kris... Robin and Kris were here the day Thigpen showed
up... so within those five days is when Thigpen showed up and before this...
somewhere... was another surprise visit from those guys that was never
Q: Before Thigpen.
G: You already know Thigpen was with the OFI, right?
Q: No, you say OFI... I'm familiar with the OSI... but what is the OFI?
G: The Office of Federal Investigations... which is not something you can
look up in the phonebook... it's not a public access like the FBI or CIA...
and I'm not totally... George Knapp might be able to help you out a little
more there... but they apparently... they do background checks for people
that need clearance... they do the background checks and they are a division
of the Office of Personnel Management... OPM... which is headquartered in
Pennsylvania... and OFI is something almost nobody's ever heard of...
Q: I had never heard of them... background investigations that I was
familiar with were done by the Defense Investigative Service... DIS... and
sometimes the FBI would get involved... so this is a new one for me and OSI...
is Office of Special Investigations...
G: This was definitely OFI... they have an office here in town...
L: Yeah, George Knapp managed to track them down...
G: And he had written down the name of Mike Thigpen and a phone number and
gave it to me and I lost the piece of paper, but I remembered Thigpen's
name... I told George Knapp... George Knapp found out Thigpen worked for the
OFI... we then told Knapp, because we didn't have the phone number, that
John Andrews, of Testor, the one doing the disc... John is kind of a hub for
a lot of information... John found out that it was the OFI here in town and
that they were a division of the Office of Personnel Management in
Pennsylvania and gave us the number of Thigpen and his boss' name and...
John Andrews was also the guy... we were talking about John Lear before,
just to let you know how Andrews fits in and the background... is even... by
the time we ever heard of Lear... and Lear had already gone off the deep end...
he was probably right about the deep end, actually, but, anyway, Lear,
himself, in the mid-'80's, I guess, was a disbeliever and kind of pooh-poohing
UFO's and John Andrews is the guy who scooped in the models for the Stealth
Fighter and the SR71 and U2 and these guys were always out trying to glance
glimpses of it, proto-type aircraft, and Andrews knew Lear from somewhere...
and Andrews heard Lear making fun of that and said, hey, there's something
to this and you ought to check it out. And John Andrews was actually the guy
that got John Lear on the trail and Andrews, subsequently, he wanted the
disc model to be his coup de grace and he wanted to do this and then retire...
L: I never knew that.
JANUARY 1, 1989
Q: I appreciate you chiming in like this...
L: I'm already calling you GUFON, here... and right up there, you're Gene...
G: 'Cause I had been reading all that UFO stuff.
L: Yeah... I told them the GUFON...
G: Okay... we were just making fun of MUFON...
L: So before this... before January 1st is when they came in with the
transcript to the door... with a conversation between Gene and I and had
outlined various things we were talking about... I thought that happened
much further on... but it must have happened...
G: Are you sure you're not thinking of the one with Jim... because they did
one with Jim before the one with you and I.
G: I thought that's how I remembered it... the first time...
L: What's screwing me up is I purposely wrote stuff out of order on here...
G: Yeah... he's stealth himself...
L: But it's not suppose to backfire on me...
G: But I remember them questioning you about a conversation with you and Jim...
'cause Jim was working up at TTR and the... Slim Jim... all that stuff...
calling Slim Jim...
L: Right... oh, right.
G: That happened before you and I.
L: I forgot all about that.
Q: What happened there?
L: It was almost an identical situation that happened to Gene and again they
came in and, at that time, now Jim and I are talking cause he's working up
at Tonapa... that's a secure area... and I'm working where I am... and we
say very little on the phone, because Jim is working on his clearance and I
really don't remember how the conversation got started, but it was, again, I
think it was the use of a nickname, right...
G: I wasn't involved in that... I just remember talking about it...
L: That got it started and I never did call him Jim during the conversation
and that brought them right over to the house afterwards.
Q: So they came over with the transcript?
Q: And said, who were you talking to and what is this about?
L: Right... who's the guy, Slim, I think is what was said...
G: You guys might have chirped on the phone...
L: Boy, yeah, that makes a lot of sense...
G: I don't even know where it...
L: I have no idea how it started... this is years ago... because Jim and I
have known each other for a long time, but, when Jim called... or if I
called there and Vicky answered the phone... instead of saying, hi, hello...
he always makes a bird chirp noise and I do the same thing.
G: You know how people do stupid things... when they chirped to each other...
instead of saying hi, this is Bob...
L: Oh, I know exactly what it was... we did something like that and said
something like... what's up Slim... and then it was... nothing I can talk
about on the phone... remember that? And he said, okay, I'll see you later.
So, they came over right away thinking that this was a plan to set up a
meeting between us two and exchange information in person.
Q: Now, you had been to Trip to Nowhere one time...
L: No, no... I've gone there twice...
Q: So, you've been up there twice... so you've actually been to S4?
L: Yeah, now I was already at S4 when...
Q: When they came over with the transcript... the chirp script...
G: What did you go to S4 twice in December, right?
L: No... S4 once... Groom Lake once.
G: Oh... okay.
L: And I went before Christmas. So before the 23rd...
G: Because they broke for Christmas, didn't they...
L: Yes, before the 23rd is the second trip there and I don't know where that
Q: Did the fellows with the transcript come over before Thigpen or after? Or
do you remember?
L: The fellows with the transcript came over after Thigpen... that's why
this would make a lot more sense if this was Jim... this calendar's doing
exactly the opposite of what it's suppose to...
Q: Confusing the enemy...
L: Right... whatever it is it's effective... anyway, you know about those
events and they did occur and they occurred after January 1st.
Q: Now, if they're going to shut down... aerospace and defense companies
normally shut down for that entire week... did they? From Christmas until
New Years? You know... the whole government operations... being dead in the
L: Okay... hold on... no... cause this is the day...
JANUARY 7th, 1989
L: Okay, no, that's right... that's right... and this is the day that they
had done the allergen test up here...
Q: The allergen test was the 23rd of December?
L: Well, I'm saying before that date... I went on the second trip to S4...
where I drank the pine fluid and here it is the 7th when I said there was
lots of blood in my urine and I collapsed... and so on and so forth... and
on the following Monday I went to the doctor.
(PHONE RINGS. MACHINE TURNED OFF AND BACK ON.)
JANUARY 9th, 1989
Q: Let me repeat that... that was the 9th of January and that's when you
went to the doctor and you got a shot of Demerol and what happened?
G: Well, it was just fine because I called and he was high... he had never
done any drugs in his whole life and I gave him a shot of Demerol and he was
slurring his words and everything and I didn't know what was wrong.
(START OF TAPE 6 -- SIDE B)
JANUARY 12, 1989
L: That looks like a trip to Los Alamos on the 12th of January.
Q: Is this probe related?
L: Leaving the next day. Buy the first 6" shell on Sunday.
JANUARY 16, 1989
L: Work at 4pm -- here's another trip.
Q: Okay, that's 16 -- January.
L: Right. Now Lear is written at the top here and I don't know why -- looks
like it was written in after the date was written, but I can't be sure.
Q: Just so that you're anchoring with regards to these trips... is this a
trip in which you were exposed to files?
L: Oh, yeah, all of them were.
L: Unfortunately, they're not all going to be listed here... and
Q: Is this a trip in which you... had you seen the spacecraft... the disc?
At this point.
L: At this point, yes, probably so.
L: Yes, because we had one... this is probably the first time I saw it.
Q: 16, January.
L: Right. Sitting outside... because this would have been the third trip
there... and I remember the third trip was when I came in the side entrance.
G: And you started acting a lot more secretive and wierd in January...
Q: Now, Gene, how did he start to act... secretive and wierd... give me an
G: He compartmentalizes information, anyway... he wasn't paranoid in the
classic sense of the word... but, he wouldn't talk about anything that even
skirted the issue... I mean, there's nothing wrong with one of your friends
saying, how's your new job. But, it would be a big deal to him.
Q: You asked him... what did he say?
G: Probably in sign (?)... you know, something unbelievable... some dirty
(?) answer... but, I mean, but he had worked at Los Alamos... he worked on
secret things before... so, you would just think that he's working on
something he can't talk about... you wouldn't go... well, I bet he's working
on flying saucers... but, he was a little more defensive than you would
think he would be if he was working on some type of bomb or missile, which
the average person wouldn't care about anyway... or understand... he was a
little defensive and you got the... my perception from his attitude was...
let's just stay off that subject... and then he'd also talk... not about the
job... but about the security check... I mean, I knew Thigpen had come by
and these guys would drop by his house and so, in all probability, his phone
was tapped and who knew if they had come back or whatever... so, it was...
you just couldn't talk about it... you could make small talk about anything,
except anything about what he'd been up to lately as far as his new job. And
it's a strange job... he gets a job and he's leaving at four in the evening
and coming home at random times at night...
Q: What did you think about that? Did you comment to anybody that this was
kind of a wierd situation?
G: No, because I didn't really know enough about... I'm not a scientist, or
anything, I've never worked in a scientific program, or a government
program, and that could be normal. A lot of people here... for instance guys...
there're a lot of people working at the test site here in town and the test
site will provide small studio type apartments for these guys so they can
pay some nominal fee and go up and stay all week, rather than take a bus out
and back every day and be beat at the end of the week. A lot of guys without
kids... or single guys... I think it was something crazy like seven bucks a
day or eleven bucks a day or something to rent these apartments and stay up
there all week... so that type of activity isn't unusual.
Q: January 16th... now you said something about coming in the side door and
you saw it outside or something...
L: Coming in the hangar door instead of going around the back into the
Q: That's the time when you really thought it was something we were building...
(MACHINE TURNED OFF AND BACK ON)
JANUARY 19, 1989
L: Another Los Alamos trip on the 19th... stayed at my friend Joe's out
Q: You and Joe talk about what... anything about your new job? Did he know
you had a new job?
L: Yeah... I think... no... he knew I had a new job... and I was still just
being secretive about everything.
Q: Okay. Now... critical point... you've seen a disc... you are reading
files... have the files, at this point, indicated to you that that disc
isn't one of ours...
Q: So, at this point you really know that...
L: Oh, yeah, I know what's going on now.
JANUARY 24, 1989
L: And, in fact, when I get back from Los Alamos on the 24th... I go out
Q: 24th... of January.
Q: Okay. Is that always listed as "Trip to Nowhere"?
L: No... it's "go to work" here... "go to work" back here... my birthday's
on the 26th...
JANUARY 26, 1989
Q: What did you do on your birthday?
L: Went out with GUFON and his wife to Alpine Village... a Swedish
restaurant... that was the first time I ate rabbit, I think.
G: Or was it duck?
L: No, rabbit.
JANUARY 28, 1989
L: Tracy's sister comes out.
Q: Tracy's sister's name is...
Q: Kris... and this is... she's studying to be a lawyer.
G: She switched vocations, didn't she... she was going to take Japanese or
Chinese or be an interpreter... or was it a Chinese speaking lawyer...?
L: Who knows.
G: She was a nut, though. I don't think she ever did anything, do you?
L: I don't know. By the way, just a side question here, don't they, if
they're... I imagine Tracy's got to be part of the screenplay in some
Q: Um hmm... but real or in a fictional scene... it depends on how we
eventually work it out... because what you may want to say is... I don't
really want this is there like that... because it has to do with my private
life... let's just fictionalize this person...
L: Well, that's what I was wondering was if they're going to be represented
in a movie, don't you need their permission? Because the last time Guber
Peters asked her... she said no.
(MACHINE TURNED OFF AND BACK ON)
L: Well, however, that's going to be... it's going to be difficult to get
her permission for anything.
Q: Now where are you making... where are you manufacturing the probes at
L: Los Alamos.
Q: You're doing it all there.
L: In a friend's house, yeah.
G: You didn't shave your beard off until February?
L: Yeah, I was shocked... that's the most shocking thing...
G: I thought you shaved your beard off when you went to the EG&G interview...
because you were looking very business-like.
L: That's certainly nothing I would have purposely put somewhere else...
that's really strange. I wonder what prompted me to do that?
G: Here's another thing for the missing days there, when he just put an 'X"
in it and didn't write that he went to work... keep in mind now the security
guys are dropping by randomly and can look at his calendar... so he can't
put down... worked at S4...
Q: Now, Bob, when you're doing this calendar... was there any particular
reason for having done a calendar like this?
L: Oh, I'd done it for years... I got in that habit all the way back... I've
got... I think I've got fifteen years of calendars... it's just total,
complete habit... I can't not do it... it's cause I've got such a terrible
memory, it's the only thing were I can... and it saved me a lot of times...
on different things... when did I get insurance and so on and so forth...
there's always been one up somewhere. So, it's habit, I guess.
G: Aren't there just big blotches of days where you just "X" out days and
don't write anything... any of those can be work days?
L: Yeah, I was just looking for something that might look... There's nothing
in February... well, I went to work in there somewhere. Where I don't know...
I don't see anything...
Q: Once a week?
L: No, not always... there should have been a couple of trips during that
Q: Okay. You're in the lab now?
L: Umm hmm.
Q: Gene, are you noticing a change in his behavior as he gets deeper and
deeper into this program?
G: Yeah, that he wasn't any fun anymore.
G: I mean he really wasn't. I mean we have fun now, even after he told us...
even after... you know, it's easy to relax and make fun and have laughs
about things in the past, but at that time it was a (UNCLEAR)... because Bob
wouldn't talk about anything, he would be very abrupt and discreet on the
phone because he presumed they were listening to him... and he was right,
you know... and, so, you couldn't hardly talk about anything and it was just
kind of a drag.
Q: How often did you see him... once a week... twice a week?
G: About once. His photo lab was still doing the photos... so he was
involved with that... but later I see him five days a week, sometimes...
but, you know, there were other things going on... remember, we were...
that's when we got the small business innovative research program... which
is a big government (UNCLEAR) by different agencies for companies of 400
people or less... they put up funding and they need innovative research in
different levels... level 1, 2, 3... for instance, the guys who fly the
F15's or this or that, they need a cooling system to go inside their flight
suits to keep them cool... for instance if it's level three, you can get all
the information, they go... here's where we're at and here's where our
problem is... what is your idea to solve it and, if you come up with some
ideas, then they'll fund... give you money... and then, if you further the
idea, make a working model, they can be manufactured... like even the
defense contract can buy it from you... and this is to keep all the big,
giant companies from getting all the business.
MARCH 22, 1989
L: March 22nd I have written down -- "go to there"... now, I have a feeling
that that wasn't a trip to work. Because on the...
MARCH 29, 1989
L: Jim, GUFON and Jackie go fishing...
G: ... which is... fishing is Groom Lake...
L: Right. So "go to there"...
Q: Wait a minute, fishing is Groom Lake... tell me that a different way...
when, you say...
L: "Go fishing" is the code meaning...
G: Groom Lake is the drylake bed... Area 51... so "going fishing" was when
he took us up to...
L: When I knew the test schedule...
Q: So, this is a Wednesday...
L: Oh, yeah, it is a Wednesday... and this is a Wednesday, too... good point...
so these are two dates when we're out spying...
Q: Okay, what are the dates?
L: Wednesday the 22nd of March and Wednesday the 29th of March. Now the 22nd
of March must've been the first time that we ever went.
G: My son was born March 15th and I had a little baby and my in-laws were
still in town... so here's the whole family at the house and Bob and his
wife drop by and...
Q: Now, you didn't know anything about this before...
G: Oh, yeah, he had told us now...
Q: Okay, wait... step me back... to the first time he comes to tell you.
G: I don't know what date it was but we were driving down Alta Street in my
car and I don't know where we were going and I said something... I said, you
don't think my car's bugged, do you? He said, no, I said, well...
Q: Why'd you say that?
G: Well, because I knew about the security check, I knew he was generally
paranoid, I knew whatever he was doing at work, he wouldn't talk about...
and I said, you ever going to tell me what you're doing at work... because I
thought he would if he got a chance... and that's when he told me he was
working on this disc...
Q: What did he say?
G: He said... "they've got 'em."
L: That's right.
G: Now, I had seen programs with John Lear and stuff on TV saying there were
flying saucers out there... but I didn't necessarily believe him...
Q: So he said, "they've got 'em."
G: "They've got 'em."
Q: Did you know...
G: I knew right away... they've got flying saucers that're called discs and
he proceeded to tell me about them and I was shocked...
Q: What did you feel when he said "they've got 'em"?
G: Exhilarated, because I knew then... now in hindsight... it was dominos
all the way down the line... this is why his personality changed... in other
words, the personality changes and his activities now made sense and, also,
it reinforced, even at this point, that I knew this guy was telling the
truth... because, even if it's your friend, you've got to be apprehensive...
I mean this changes everything... this means everything... and he told me
that they had 'em... they had discs... they had nine of them... there were
nine hangars... he was in the lab... he told me there were all different
shapes... one was a Sportsmodel...
Q: This is as you're driving down the street?
G: Yeah... we're driving down the street and then he also told me... I
remember... that the one looked like they had put it up on the edge and shot
a projectile through it... because there was a hole in it as though they had
tested the skin's integrity and that's when he first started teaching me
about space/time distortion, because I said, well, maybe they shot it down...
because remember now I'm reflecting on bullshit that I've heard John Lear
and others say on television and read in Omni and things like that... and he
explained space/time distortion and how impractical it would be that any jet
fighter of ours could ever catch one of those things... much less get a
missle to shoot through it.
Q: Where were you going in the car?
G: I don't know.
Q: What did you say when you got home?
L: Did you tell Mary when you got home?
G: I don't think I told her at first, cause you told me not to tell anybody
and stuff like that and I knew I couldn't trust her to not accidentally act
like she knew if we were out...
Q: So when did you tell her?
G: When did I tell her?
Q: Do you remember?
G: After the baby was born. Because remember now... she gave birth on March
15th and... though she's not very Catholic anymore, she was raised Catholic
and would be more reluctant...
Q: How did you tell her?
G: I just told her... once I knew he had told Jim... now, remember, after he
told me, I didn't know if he told Jim... you know what I mean, in other
Q: But he hadn't.
G: I don't know... maybe he had... although I'm friends with Jim, we don't
call each other and hang out together. He and Bob have that relationship. So
once I knew Jim knew, however I knew that, I told Mary and she was thrilled...
But she had seen all the Lear stuff and everything on TV and I had been an
open-minded guy to this, I mean from "Journey to the Gods" back in the mid-70's
and all of that stuff... so we certainly entertained the possibility and,
remember, Lear was a pretty convincing guy. He was throwing around CIA
headquarters and Jackie Gleason and Richard Nixon and Jackie Gleason
apparently had a house that was shaped like a disc and had one of the
biggest occult libraries of anybody in the world... so these were Learonyms...
these were believable stories and so we were pretty open-minded about the
possibility... we were actually amazed that we knew somebody who got into
Q: So, the baby's born and then Bob says, do you want to come out and see a
L: That was seven days afterwards.
G: Well, about five days afterwards, or something, and again, he had already
told us at this point, I knew what he was working on and stuff, and I
started reading... getting books... I appraised Lear's house in exchange to
get a bunch of tapes from Lear... all kinds of UFO information, which were
taped terribly, but was really good. It was all kinds of UFO stuff and, so
anyway, what had happened was, we couldn't speak in Bob's house, so we went
out in the driveway and, this was after they didn't call him to work for a
few weeks, I guess, so I told him I was reading about all this UFO
information and they talk about the Roswell crash in '47 and the alledged
Russian landings in the '50's and the (UNCLEAR) in the '60's and I said,
well, if all this is going on... there must be something going on somewhere
now... if there are aliens here and they're flying around and whatever there
venue is... they must be here now... that's where I want to be. And he said...
what are you doing Wednesday night.
L: That's right. That's exactly right.
G: I said, what did you have in mind. And then he tells me. That he knows
the disc schedule and stuff and he's going to take us out there then to
watch the disc... which was one of the most thrilling...
Q: Tell me about this... there was the three of you... this was the first
L: It was Jim, also.
Q: Oh, Jim... wasn't Jim up at Tonapa...
L: Yeah, but he came down sporadically...
G: He'd have to work five and seven day stretches, but it wasn't always
Monday through Friday...
L: Right. So it was me, Gene, Jim and Tracy. Right? I have to check it with
you. No, no, no... that was the second time... the first night was...
G: Lear... no, Lear was the last night.
L: I know you and I were there... it must have been Lear, because we had the
G: Yeah, we invited Lear, because Lear's got an eight inch Selectron (sp?)
and he knew, I didn't know... I'd never been out there, but he knew we were
going to be a long way away... over a mountain range and so we had met Lear
by then and Lear had a telescope and it was me, you, Lear and Tracy.
Q: What car?
G: It was Lear's RV.
Q: You're driving up there. Everybody was... was this light-hearted
conversation... was this deadly serious... were you afraid?
L: I remember...
G: Here's a guy telling me I'm going to get to see an extraterrestrial
vehicle tested... you know...
L: And, as we're coming up the mountain, which goes down... now the thing is
going to take off... I forget at what time... 9:15 or 8:15... we're coming
up the hill and the transmission gives out on the motor home and we're stuck
in the middle of the road on a hill in the middle of the desert...
G: So I hitchhike with a guy coming from either Area 51 or (UNCLEAR), I get
in his truck and he's going to take me all the way down the hill to get some
transmission fluid at the gas station down there... and on the way down, and
this guy's drinking beer, you know, guys drive through central Nevada and
they pick up a six-pack for safe driving on the way home... and we're going
down and I start talking with his guy about Area 51 and, though he wouldn't
really open up, he was a complete stranger, he (UNCLEAR) working at Area 51
and that you do have to get clearance to get anywhere in there and he had
worked with a man who had had a heart attack and they called an ambulance
and the ambulance didn't have clearance to get inside the gate... so they
had to bring the guy from inside there to the gate and it took too long and
the guy died... and had he gotten to the ambulance he would have lived...
but just by virture of security clearance, they held the ambulance at the
gate and made the guy be brought out to the gate and the guy died... this is
the story from this complete stranger. He takes me down there to get
transmission fluid... I buy him another six-pack of beer to thank him and he
takes me back out...
Q: Oh, he drove you back up?
G: He drove me back up... I was going to have to hitchhike back up again...
Q: So you were still going up the grade... and is this on the way to what is
now Alien Inn?
G: No... Alie-Inn is past there... it's thirty miles past there...
L: Actually that heart attack story I thought came from Dennis... but it
didn't... now I remember where the origin of that story was...
G: Oh, yeah...
Q: So you get the transmission fluid back in...
G: We go back up, we put the transmission fluid in... we turn out the lights...
sneak down the road... set up the telescope...
Q: This was a paved road, though?
L: No, dirt road.
G: Gravel road.
L: While you're talking, let me just try and find "The Day After" on tape...
Q: Gene... tie this one off for me... you went up, parked, set up the
telescope... what happened?
G: Well, after dark, a light appeared up in the sky... started jumping
around... pretty thrilling... now, listen, it was really thrilling that day...
but the reason I'm playing it down was because the next week, when Jim was
with us... not Lear...
Q: What did Lear say when he saw the light?
G: He knew it.
L: He was excited...
G: He knew they were out there... it just confirmed it.
L: It was more like... "I told you."
Q: Now, you were looking at it through the telescope?
L: No, I wasn't... because I thought I'd let them see what was going on.
G: Yeah, we got to see it through a telescope and it was still far away
through the telescope... you could see an elliptical light and it jumped
around and danced around in the air...
Q: Could you see it with the naked eye?
G: Oh, yeah, you could. When we got the best shot of it... Lear got his eye
on the eyepiece... and when we got the best shot of it... he's getting out
of the way and he kicks the tripod and moves the telescope. And, if you
think it's easy, it is tough to get that thing on that telescope... and the
L: We really hated him...
G: Yeah, we really hated him after that.
Q: It was approximately how many miles away?
L: Thirteen, I would guess.
G: But the next week, we rented a Lincoln, because we all had small cars and...
Q: Now this is the second time?
G: This is the second time.
L: Which was on...
G: April 29th...
L: No, wait... March...
G: March 29th...
Q: Now, were you excited that week, knowing that the next week you were
going to go out and look at this again?
G: I felt so privileged... I felt like the luckiest son of a bitch in the
world... he's a physicist and was in the program and stuff... I'm getting
this free of charge... nobody wants to kill me... I realized how lucky we
all were... as a writer, don't you feel fortunate to jump on... this is the
best story... imagine if Jesus was here... it's got... infidelity... it's
got government cover-up... it's got... isn't this great?
Q: You're in the Lincoln... take me out...
G: Okay, we rent a Lincoln cause we've all got small cars...
Q: Who signed on the dotted line for the Lincoln?
G: I did... I was the only one who had a charge card I think...
L: No, no, no, wait... wasn't that Kristin...
L: He remembers better than I do...
G: There was a Lincoln... I rented it... Budget Rent A Car and so Jim and
I... we're going up... Jim and I are in the front... Bob and Tracy are in
the back... Bob's got a video camera... I think Bob was also explaining
space/time distortion to Tracy in the back seat, if I remember right and the
funny thing was, we're going up and Jim's looking out the window and it
looks like these two F15's are following us. And Jim's looking out the
window and we said, what're you looking at and he says, I know this is an
optical illusion but it seems like these F15's are folllowing us... as
though we'd be important enough... and, so as a joke, I said, that's okay,
I'll get rid of them, I've seen 'Top Gun" and I started backing the car...
back and forth on the highway...
L: He did that...
G: But then we got up there... we got up and turned the lights out... we
snuck down the road and waited about...
Q: Same place... you're going to the same place.
G: About four and a half...
Q: Now, you've got no telescope this time...
G: Yeah, we've got a telescope... it's a small telescope, video camera,
which is what I think he's cueing up there... yeah, this is the actual sound
from that night, isn't it?
L: Yeah, this is the whole thing... I even have the tape of us in the car,
Q: Who's running the camera? Bob, are you running the camera?
G: Yeah. He's in the back seat...
L: Probably, yeah.
G: He and Tracy are in the back seat. So, anyway, we went down the road to
the same place... we set up the telescope and stuff and Bob is screwing with
the telescope, because the mountain and the skies are starting to blend
together, it's getting dark, and I can't see shit.
Q: Now, are you just kind of standing there? Are you drinking beer? Or...
G: I'm sure Jim was drinking beer.
L: Jim always drinks beer.
G: We were probably drinking soft drinks, or something. Not that I'm opposed
to beer, but I wouldn't have been drinking it then, because I would have had
to work the next morning. So then, Bob is screwing around with the telescope
and video camera... Jim's looking through binoculars... no, he's screwing
with the telescope, Tracy's on the video camera... cause we know where to
look now... we had seen this thing before... but Jim hadn't... Jim's looking
Q: It came up over the top of the mountain...
G: So we're looking around and, without looking exactly at it, a small light
passed above the mountains and I go, Bob, look at that. And he goes...
that's probably just a star. Period. That's generally the place it pops up
in the sky. It's not moving or anything... so he goes back to the telescope...
and so then I'm just looking with binoculars, watching it... now Cereus
jumps up and jumps three or four, five miles to the west. And Jim says, holy
shit, did you see that? And I said, hey, Bob... and he said, what, and I
said, Cereus just jumped about three miles to the west and he looked up and
that was the night... it jumped up and did the step moves all around and,
even though all of this is in hindsight now, it's still very hard to believe
it happened, but it did. It came so far up the mountain range toward us and
glowed so brightly, again we left the trunk of the Lincoln open, because we
got the telescope and everything out of there... and we actually backed up
to get behind the trunk. Now, as I reflect back on that, it's hard to
Q: It was just a light.
G: Right, but it glowed so brightly... I think your mind can only take so
much before it starts an explosion... in other words, whatever your mind's
eye is used to seeing, it's hard to describe, when this thing came down the
mountain range... it's not as though it's a car on the highway or a train on
the railroad track approaching you and you say, yeah, it'll be here in a few
minutes, it'll be there and you'll say something to somebody and turn around
and it's a lot closer and you didn't see it come and you might blink and
it's a lot closer... I guess that's by virtue of the way it travels... and
it's alarming cause you don't see it coming... you can't judge it... it's
like boom... boom... it's actually that fast... and, according to Bob's
information, the more highly energized it is, the more brightly it glows...
the more of a charge you're going to see around the disc and so when it
dropped down near to where we were, it was glowing so brightly, it was like
a small sun...
Q: Was it illuminating the car?
(PHONE RINGS. MACHINE TURNED OFF AND BACK ON)
Q: So you stepped back behind the car?
G: We stepped back behind the trunk and the thing glowed back down...
Q: What did Jim say?
L: Oh, look, this is April 5th.
G: That's the final night when we got busted without seeing any disc...
L: Okay, that's the car that she rented then.
G: That's the car she rented.
L: I had the two days blended together.
Q: What did Jim say when he saw the disc coming towards you?
G: Well, you can probably hear it if he finds...
L: No, this is the third night... Well, you can finish the second night and
when the third night comes up, we've got the tape.
G: What did Jim say... "holy shit!"
G: Jim's not a man of many words... he wouldn't say a big soliloquy about
Q: No, Jim's got a clearance... Jim's worked...
L: No, he never did get his clearance...
L: But he was working on it...
G: Because he knew Bob Lazar.
G: But that was a thrilling night. That was the best night we ever got.
Q: So the disc left.
G: The disc went back down the mountain range... did a few more moves... sat
there right above the mountain where it came up and then very slowly just
went right back down... the show's over...
Q: Five minutes, roughly... three minutes...
G: I don't know... I was thrilled and I wasn't... It was the longest one I
saw... it was minutes... it wasn't just a few seconds.
Q: You drove back... what did anybody say in the car when you drove back?
Was it quiet, was it noisy?
G: It was noisy... although, it's a drive from hell on the way home when
it's dark, so it gets quiet cause everybody's falling asleep. But I was
thrilled. I think Jim and I were... we were in the front seat... we had
music on... I don't even know what Tracy and Bob...
Q: Bob, did anybody tell you that you should tell more people that night?
L: I don't remember. I actually remember very little about that night. Other
than just the major events.
G: Now, listen, he's not kicked out of the program yet... so, everybody who
knows him knows how ludicrous it would be... in other words, you were
thankful that Bob let you in... you would never go... why don't we bring all
of us inside... you were thrilled to be... honored... to be in that group
and nobody would have suggested that... because his life and security
clearance and everything else were really on the line.
Q: So you drove back. That was the...
L: That was the 29th.
Q: What happens in the next few days before the next test flight. Anything?
G: Well, Kris comes to town... that's one thing.
APRIL 4th, 1989
L: Kris comes to town on the 4th. Oh here it is...
APRIL 5th, 1989
L: "Bad day at Groom" is what's written on the 5th. So that's the day we got
caught. And here it is...
APRIL 6th, 1989
L: Debriefing on the 6th.
Q: That's Indian Springs. Let's take a look at that day at Groom.
[VIDEO TAPE OF THE 3RD VISIT TO GROOM LAKE BEGINS TO RUN IN THE B.G. A BIT
HARD AT TIMES TO DISTINGUISH INTERVIEW FROM THAT B.G. DIALOGUE.]
Q: So who's in the car now?
L: This is Kris driving. There's John Lear. No, you didn't want John to come.
G: We never wanted John to come. He was too big an asshole. He acts like
he's in charge. How this happened was... you know the tests ran on a regular
basis and Lear called and wanted to go up to Groom and Bob goes, Nah, I
don't think we're going to go tonight... and blows him off and Lear says,
well, I'm going out there anyway and so Bob calls me and says...
L: Didn't he just show up in front of the house?
G: He might have called you from his cellphone... I remember that you did
call me and I go... well, I don't know... cause Lear and I never got along
terribly well... so Lear shows up within twenty minutes...
[GENE AND BOB SPEAKING SIMULTANEOUSLY]
L: There's everyone there... that's Tracy there...
G: There's a car rented... and Lear doesn't even think for a second that he
wasn't invited he thinks that in twenty minutes we ran out, rented a car,
and got ready to go to Groom Lake.
L: Tracy's standing on the center line saying, here comes a car. We're
trying to decide on the best vantage point.
Q: It's a paved highway.
L: Yeah, this is the highway, we haven't taken the road down there yet.
Q: What does his hat say?
L: Special Forces or something.
G: That's John Lear with a regular .35 mm camera... he's going to take a
picture of a light in the sky fifteen miles away.
Q: Let me ask Gene about that... we actually talked about that quite at
length. Gene, tell me from your perspective what happened that night? About
when you were caught.
G: Actually what happened was we were up there... you saw us there... we
were looking over the valley... now, what that didn't show, was there all
kinds of four-wheel drive vehicles sweeping the road.
Q: Sweeping the dirt road.
G: These are dirt roads that ranchers can use to go in and get their cattle,
cause this is open range. But all the security vehicles were sweeping these
roads to make sure no one was on them.
Q: Now, you knew they were security vehicles?
L: Right. We were waiting for them to disappear.
G: That's what we could see through those binoculars, although it wasn't on
any of the video. We could see what kind of vehicles they were. Besides the
ranchers drive old trucks with big trailers on them.
Q: So you were waiting for them to leave.
G: Get done in the area and then once it started getting dark with no lights
on, we snuck... no, did you get out of the car first?
L: No... that was the story... that was the story we had talked about on the
phone. If anyone asks, I got out at the... that was the stop sign story...
G: We go down the road and we're going further and further and we're
deciding well, should we stop here, no... let's go in further... no lights
on or anything and eventually, I don't know why, Kris hit the brakes...
L: No, we stopped by slamming into park... but we forgot that when we opened
the door the dome light goes on...
G: That's right... that's right. Yeah, because we were going to try to sneak
out and she hit the brakes on the way out. But anyway, the dome light comes
on so and I guess it's dark now...
L: Yeah, cause when the dome light came on...
G: The dome light comes on and Blazers and Broncos start coming out from the
security base out there all over the roads... and you can see dust kicking
up in the air and all these vehicles running all over the place. And this is
when you got out, isn't it?
L: We actually drove up the road a bit and saw that they were already up in
front of us...
G: Right because they had gone up the other road and gone to the highway and
they're coming on the highway and there's no way we can beat them to the
highway... so we were going up the road and we were going to try and sneak
out... but Tracy had to hit the brakes a few times... and then once... now
they've got headlights on... he gets out and takes the gun in case of
rattlesnakes cause he can't get caught with us. We go further up the road...
oh, that's it... now, he's out... he's going over and hiding in the desert...
we look up the road and the security vehicles behind us stop, so we stop...
cause they aren't going to chase us... we aren't going to leave... and so
then they start up again and we start up again... and then we stop because
they've got us in both directions... interesting... the two guys that came
in the vehicle down from the road were two Indians... Indian looking guys...
I mean, thin, thirty, thirty-five years old and they were Indians... which I
found really strange... cause that's not Indian reservation...
L: I never saw that.
Q: But they were in uniforms?
G: No, no... they were in plainclothes and they were in a Blazer... I
remember it was a Chevy and they were in a Blazer and they were Indians and
the only reason I thought they were in it was because the guys who came up
behind us were in uniforms and the Indian guys pulled over and the main head
guy, who was very big, muscular guy and bald headed, went over and they
spoke... we were just up the way, but I couldn't hear what they said or
anything, but they knew each other... they were involved in coming around
the highway... I don't know... I don't know... and then there were two
vehicles behind us and then the head guy -- bald headed -- they had
automatic weapons, but they saw that we weren't any threat and they put the
automatic weapons back in their vehicles and the bald headed, big, muscular
guy -- the head security guy -- and then another guy, who was even bigger,
like they could have beat the shit out of us... they weren't worried about
having to use weapons on us... and he said, what are you doing out here. Now
genius Lear says, "What did we do, break up a drug bust or something?" I
don't know where that came from, but these guys have machine guns... we're
out here... and so anyway... oh, when we stopped... we stopped and set up
the telescope again real fast... and we said, we're just watching the stars...
so the head guy radioed back and said, they say they're out here watching
the stars... and we didn't hear what the response was, but I'm sure they
said, get 'em out of there. And so he hands us this sheet and says...
L: Oh, really... this is the first I heard of that.
G: Yeah, he hands us this sheet and says...
Q: What sheet?
G: It's a handout they give showing the Nevada revised statutes regarding
that military installation and, if you enter the military installation, or
you are out there with any... binoculars... video equipment...
L: It's a crime actually to sketch the mountain range...
G: So, legally even if you take a picture of the outside of the moutain,
they can charge you a thousand dollar fine and put you in jail for a year.
So, he hands us a sheet of paper saying that... and says, well, whether you
know it or not, there's a military installation on the other side of the
mountain range... we want you to get back up on the highway if you're just
watching stars... we don't know why you're in the middle of Nevada watching
stars anyway... cause the stars can be seen from a lot of places... so Lear
says something. I was quiet, cause I didn't want... Lear says, well, this is
(UNCLEAR) land, or something, and they said, yeah, and we can't force you to
get off here, but we'd prefer that you get back up on the highway. So they
got back in their vehicles and just sat there, waiting for us... So
eventually, we went back up toward the highway and he had moved up in the
dark and was going up that way and so we weren't on the highway, we were up
by the highway and Bob came walking back over, put the gun in the trunk, and
we told him what had happened...
L: Wait, you're leaving out a good part of the story... about me and you
G: Right... that's what I'm getting to now... and then we started joking
about what if we had guys surrounding the guards... is that what you're
Q: How did that happen?
L: Well, we didn't know they were right there...
G: Right. And we had pulled up by the highway and it's dark now and we don't
know they're there and we start goofing around saying, wouldn't they have
been surprised if, when they pulled up and started out, we had people with
guns surrounding them... and blah, blah, blah, and we're standing there
talking and, I don't remember exactly, I know me and Tracy... did you see
the green light drop also...
G: Okay... me and Bob and Tracy are standing there talking and we see a
green light back down the road go... like that... and I guess that's kind of
what... those green scopes... well, apparently, they had been watching us
through that and dropped it and we all saw the green light drop and realized
these guys were there, so they saw Bob come walking back over to the car and
then we left and went back up on the highway and made a left... went towards
Alie-Inn cause we were going to still stay out there... and...
Q: The Alie-Inn was further down the road?
L: At that time it was the Rachel Bar and Grill.
Q: It was further away...
G: From Las Vegas... right. And we went down there and sat awhile and...
L: What? I don't remember any of that... I thought we...
G: No, we went down there in the car... not too far... and we sat on the
highway for a few minutes and decided we weren't going to see anything,
whipped a U, and headed back toward Las Vegas, and, as soon as we did,
that's when (UNCLEAR) pulled us over...
L: Okay, I thought he was there when we got up to the road...
G: It's not like we were trying to memorize the situation... so then the cop
pulled us over... Kris is driving. He gets out and tells us... he's not in a
very good mood, and he tells us he's got a problem... and the problem is
that when the security pulled this vehicle over there were four people in it
and now he pulls us over and there are five. Can anybody explain that to him?
You got any weapons in this car? No remember... the guards probably saw him
put that gun in the trunk... got any weapons in this car? Bob says no... So
then Kris is the one who rented this car and he starts asking her... will
you give me permission to search this vehicle... and we couldn't even look
at her and give her a signal or anything, but she was very strong and
obstinate and she just said, no, she would not let them...
L: Well, she was going to legal school at the time and was really up on
G: She wouldn't let him search the car... so he wanted ID's from all of us
and it was Lear, wasn't it?
L: Oh, yeah.
G: So he frisks us... because I had a little bit of bronchial asthma... I
didn't hear him... so he frisked us and asked for ID from everybody... and I
didn't have any ID cause I wasn't driving... so I gave him my social
security number and stuff and Lear, instead of saying, I didn't bring my ID,
just like I did before him... says my ID's in the trunk. So he gets the keys
and opens up the trunk and there's a movie camera and a telescope and
binoculars, a Gieger counter, everything you're not suppose to have is there
in the trunk and the Sheriff's looking at this. And then Lear gives him his
ID and so he goes back to the cop car and we know this, I guess in hindsight,
but then... we didn't know that the Sheriff was in with the security people
and he radios all of our names and social security numbers and he comes back
and says... look, I've detained you fifty-five minutes now, I can only
detain you one hour without taking you in... according to law... so I'm
going to let you go, but you're out here outside this military installation
with all this stuff inside your trunk playing hide and go seek with the
guards and stuff and saying you're not up to anything, I suggest you get out
of here and don't let me catch you around here anymore... so that was it...
and we can only...
L: Well, don't forget... you did leave out a couple points... one was...
that had nothing to do with anything, was right before he said I've detained
you for so long and I'm going to let you go, I was trying to interrupt him
talking to that other cop to tell him we did have a gun in the car...
G: Oh, that's right... you were going to confess. Yeah, cause we were
getting scared... we did have a gun in the car...
L: Well, they were going to tow the car... and the tow truck came out...
G: Right... and so Bob was going to confess, but he let us go and so then,
after we got in the car, and talked about what a big dickhead the Sheriff
was... you know, typical talk about the Sheriff and I remember on the way
home, Bob wouldn't back me up, I remember Kris, his sister-in-law... now it
seems obvious that we must have been let go because Bob was with us and they
didn't know what Bob told us or anything... because there's no reason they
should have let some people who were out there on a Wednesday night with all
this illegal equipment, taking movies... just let us go and not taken our
car and searched it... and so I was in an argument with Kris, cause she
thought that Bob being with us had nothing to do with it... we were just
lucky and they let us go. And I said, you mean you think we were out there
with all this stuff and we were just let go... so, that's all I remember on
the way home, cause Bob wouldn't take my side in the argument. So, anyway,
then I remember silence. Everybody was beat.
Q: Next day... Indian Springs.
APRIL 6th, 1989
L: Indian Springs.
Q: We went down to EG&G and picked up Dennis.
L: Right and then we drove to Indian Springs in my car.
Q: When you drove into Indian Springs, did you comment that, I thought this
base was closed up... it's all boarded up, right?
L: I really had never been up to Indian Springs before that. It's not
boarded up... it's there, but just deserted.
G: It's just a little, rural base and the Thunderbirds land out there once
in awhile, don't they? It's just a little base designed to watch the
perimeter of the bombing range...
L: But it's a big area...
G: But its' nothing.
L: It's not like multitudes of buildings or anything.
G: Right... you go by it on the highway... it's not even that far to drive
out and look at it if you'd like to see it.
Q: But the gate actually has a guard there?
L: Yeah. And it says, "Auxiliary Air Force Base", or something.
G: And isn't their water tank painted with red and white checkers?
Q: When you went onto the base, did the guards stop you and ask for
someone's ID or did you just go right through the gate?
L: No, he stopped us and Dennis said something and the guy checked a list
and we went in. So that was all the priliminary stuff... Dennis knew right
where to go. He told me to go up to this building... we walked inside and it
was a small office with... I don't know how many guys were there... I know
eventually the guards came down... but I think it was me and Dennis riding
up in the car... the guy that was there and someone else.
Q: People you'd never seen before?
L: Right. People I'd never seen before.
Q: Ever saw them again?
L: No... definitely never saw them again. I might have seen them before... I
don't think so.
Q: Came back from Indian Springs -- did you say anything to Gene when you
L: I know I told him about what had happened.
G: Yeah, the next day... not that night. You went out there... I didn't know
anything about that until the next day.
Q: What did Bob say?
G: How happy they were... that when he was driving out with Dennis... that
he asked him what we were going out there for and Dennis turned to him and
said, you know, Bob, you weren't supposed to bring all your friends out
there to watch the discs fly. And that was kind of it. He said it was a
L: It was just quiet.
G: And he said that they put guns to his head and debriefed him... the one
guy had a blue windbreaker on that said "FBI" on the back... right?
L: No, I don't remember that.
G: I'm pretty sure that's what you said, because that was the first...
because you said you didn't even know if he was "FBI", but that he had a
blue windbreaker on that said that. They put guns to his head, hollered at
him, screamed at him, and that's the night when they showed you the
transcript of Tracy and her boyfriend talking on the phone...
Q: Now when you say, that's the night... you were up there during the night
L: Whatever... it was late... it was a late... we left late and... I got
back and it was dark, so...
G: When you left EG&G it was already like four or something and so you
thought you were flying out... and you and Dennis had to go on a sixty or
seventy-five mile drive... and it was winter, so it was dark the whole time,
Q: When you saw the transcripts, that was a complete surprise to you? Or was
Q: Bob say anything about the transcripts that he saw.
L: I must have, if I told you about everything else.
G: Yeah, right... he... well, you already knew about Tracy, right? You did
before you went...
L: No, that was the first I heard...
G: Oh, that's it... see, I don't want to (UNCLEAR) here, as I remember, now
just correct me if I'm wrong, I could be wrong, but I thought the reason
they decided to show them to you... and tell you that, was because Tracy
called her mom in Minnesota and told her mom she had an affair...
L: No, that's when I came back and told Tracy they told me... and so
purposely made the call...
G: Oh, okay... all right...
L: I was trying to show them an end to... to show them that everyone knew
what was going on and it's over... I was trying to display an end... I even
think her mom knew about it... I'm not sure about that... but she purposely
made a phone call to her mom in Minnesota, telling her I told Bob about how
everything happened, he knows about everything, and so on and so forth... I
don't remember how that ended or...
G: And you had her do that to what... show them there wasn't any emotional
instability, or what?
L: Beats the hell out of me... I remember doing that... but I can't...
G: I remember talking to him about this subject... cause he was (UNCLEAR)
mad right now... so I wasn't going... well, what did he say? And what did
she say? I mean, he wasn't in the mood for that.
L: See now the story doesn't fit together right... something... I'm getting
something wrong... I remember, I made Tracy make that phone call to tell her
Mom cause I knew they were listening and, for some reason, I was... okay,
well go ahead...
G: I don't know... that was your and Tracy's personal life, the way I
remembered... and it could be wrong... you were the one that was there...
again, I wasn't jumping in to their personal business, cause this was a
touchy situation at this point and time... I didn't know... all I knew was
Tracy, maybe at your request, called her Mom and told her Mom that she had
had an affair and that she told you... I thought after that is when you went
to Indian Springs... because now the guys who were listening on your phone
knew that you knew... because they had had transcripts of her and her
boyfriend for a long time and they weren't going to break the news to Bob...
I thought, once they heard her confess to her Mom that you knew, know they
knew you knew and stuck it in your eye and said, ha, ha we've known and this
is why we're yanking your clearance...
L: Why wouldn't I remember this? This is a significant point.
G: Well, what else makes sense though...
L: Well, it's easy to find out, because...
Q: Let me ask you, one of the salient points here is at Indian Springs was
it definitive that you were not going to get your clearance?
L: No, I still wasn't sure...
L: No, I actually thought that I was still coming back, because they really
never did do anything... and, in fact, later on down the road, they asked me
to come back... I refused then, but... no one said, that's it... we want
nothing to do with you anymore... or anything along those lines. At one
point, they said... emotional instability and something about six months...
you remember anything about that... reapply in six months?
G: Yeah, but they said they were going to yank your clearance, because you
were a sure candidate for emotional instability... you can reapply in six to
nine months... Now, I was under the impression, all this shit went down the
same night as Indian Springs... but I could be wrong.
L: No, that's why I'm questioning... was that on Indian Springs night?
G: I thought on Indian Springs night... cause you never went back again...
they called you back, but you thought it was because they wanted to put you
in jail or kill you... not because of work and that's why you refused to go
G: So if you refused to go back... that means you never talked to these
people ever again other than Dennis on the phone or... that means it had to
have happened that night...
L: See, they had to have told me first because, here's the debriefing on the
6th... on the...
APRIL 10th, 1989
L: is "life equals zero".
G: That's when you knew Tracy had an affair...
L: Right... so that is the way.
G: So they were the ones that told you about Tracy's affair?
(START OF TAPE SEVEN -- SIDE A)
Q: Bob, help me with this... why is "life equals zero"...
L: I think that's because when Tracy told me about everything about the
Q: But you saw the transcripts on the 6th... so you knew about it?
G: See... Bob's a very live and let live guy... so Bob... now keep in mind,
he's been involved in the most important scientific program in the world,
he's been busy... he's been neglecting Tracy... he doesn't even tell her
what he's doing... and stuff like this... so Bob was willing to try and work
it out. See a counselor... forgive and forget. I think by the time it was
"life equals zero" , you just thought she had had a sexual fling... she told
you she actually had some feelings for Chris and that's when you said...
that's what hurt you. You didn't care that she had sex on the side...
G: You bottomed out when you found out...
G: See I don't like talking about this in front of Bob...
L: I don't like hearing about it either.
(MACHINE TURNED OFF AND BACK ON)
Q: Okay, "Life equals zero" April 10th... where do we go from there? This is
great, by the way, we're...
L: You know, I even had a feeling that what I read was not true...
Q: On the 6th...
L: But the hell with that... it doesn't matter... 'cause after the 10th
nothing really mattered.
Q: Did you show her this when you came home? Did you show her the transcript?
L: I... it's a blur... I really don't remember.
G: You didn't get the transcript, did you?
L: No... they didn't give me it. They never gave me any transcripts.
APRIL 12, 1989
L: Oh, counselor... Dr. John... two days after.
Q: Who made the call to Dr. John?
L: Tracy. And then a trip to Los Alamos. See I'm in a bad mood already...
G: I didn't want to...
Q: Bob, this is important...
L: Yeah, I know...
G: It's like... here's the worst day of your life now... what happened...
L: Exactly what happened next? Okay, here's his last name... LaClose?
G: Did you tell him what happened with Dr. John?
L: Yes... that he fired us.
Q: Can you walk through how you phrased that to him?
Q: I mean, how did it come up in the conversation?
L: Well, cause he's trying to lay out... well, what's all the stress you
guys keep talking about? And I said, well, we have a lot of external stress
and other things influencing our life... he said, well, I can't iron things
out... now this is over several visits... he said, I really can't iron
things out... why don't we lay everything out on the table... and then Tracy
and I now are playing off of each other and we're laughing... saying... we
keep beating around the bush and we finally say... okay, this is it. And we
lay everything out... and I remember him sitting there with a pencil in his
mouth and he keeps taking it out and tapping it and then he goes over a
recap of what we've just told him and it sounds...
Q: Step through the recap...
L: He said... and it sounds just as ridiculous to us... so, you were working
on alien flying saucers for the government...
G: It sounds funny now, too...
L: And I can't remember how it was stated... and now that you're not working
there... they might be after you to kill you or your wife because you went
and showed your friends and your phone is tapped... everything you do is
being monitored... so on and so forth... and at the end... we said, yeah,
that's about it... and he just told us... look, I don't think I'm going to
be able to see you guys anymore... so... that's it and we left and...
G: They got fired...
L: Right. And then we had a great laugh coming back. That was... if anything
that actually did help, because we talked about that for days. Okay, that
was here, so we went the first time to the counselor... everything happened
on the 10th... the 12th we went to the counselor... then we went again on
the 18th and the 25th is when we got fired.
Q: What's the next date, Bob?
L: Well... Tracy and I are still living together... and still working
together... so... she goes to Los Alamos and I'm here... huh? Well... Dr.
John at 6 p.m.... maybe that was the last day.
JUNE 1, 1989
L: So... that, I guess, is the last day. But this is a surprising entry on
June 1st... it says... told Trac secret... what secret could that possibly
be? Obviously, she knew about all the flying saucer stuff. What was left
that I could probably... is it something that's going to depress me?
G: Nothing I'm going to tell you. I don't know what that would be... but
didn't you go on TV in silhouette in May... didn't they start chasing you...
L: Oh, oh, oh... maybe that's it. Yeah, cause we were caught...
G: April 5th... debriefed April 6th and I think you were on TV in May in
silhouette that was when you were trying to get them to leave you alone so
you came forward.
Q: What happened in that period, as best you recall, when Bob was... felt
like he was in danger? Did you feel like you were in danger, also?
G: Yeah... I was a little paranoid because once he told me about the
transcript of Tracy on the phone, I knew for sure his phone was tapped and,
by that time, we had relaxed somewhat and talked about stuff on the phone...
where if someone really was listening, they knew I knew... and they knew Jim
knew... and they even would know I had called other people and told them...
but I always felt they were after him... I mean, I was paranoid... although
some of it was being paranoid for him more so than me... although I always
thought... actually I remember me and you and Tracy talking about staying
quiet about it... certainly more for him... I'm just saying that I can
remember the three of us talking about... that even Tracy and I felt that
like we were carrying a weight... because now we knew... he had taken us out...
shown us the disc... we believed him... we knew there had been life here
from another source and the rest of the entire world, including people older
than us... younger than us... everybody didn't know... and it was almost
like a burden... I don't know if he can relate to that or not... but it was...
I don't know how to describe it... but it was like carrying a heavy weight
because then I was really... and even Tracy... started to read everything we
could... we had viewed all those tapes from Lear and I was reading stuff...
the library had a good selection of stuff here... books written in the
decade prior to that... tried to see if anybody knew anything that
paralleled what Bob had seen... so we really became students of Ufology, as
they call it... to see if anybody knew anything... and paranoid... I
remember one time... then the strange things started happening... I remember
he went to work out at the gym with Shelley and Mario and came out and his
car had been broken into to and the one time the doors... he had his Uzi and
his wallet in there and the doors were standing open and he came back to the
car and no one had stolen the Uzi or the wallet, which means whoever broke
in and opened the doors left them open to say... ha, ha we were here... then
with Mario a similar thing happened, didn't it? Didn't you go work out with
L: Right... you kind of have the story wierd... that happened with Mario,
twice, and with Shelley I went to work out with her and her car was in the
driveway... when we came back to the house, her car was open... all the
seats were back... everything was gone through, but nothing was taken.
G: And then another time... now we were paranoid, so he had his Uzi and he
loaned me a .44 Magnum 'cause I didn't even own a handgun... I'm not a
hunter or killer or anything like that... I own a gun now... so I borrowed
his .44 Magnum and so he was being followed by unknown cars. It wasn't
general paranoia because he doesn't do drugs or anything against the law
generally speaking, you know... so I remember one day I was in my office,
I've got the .44 Magnum in there and he comes walking in...
L: Oh, yeah...
G: And ah... he goes... give me the gun and I picked it up and I gave it to
him and he doesn't say anything, just walks back out and then he goes
chasing somebody, somebody had been following him down Charleston towards my
office and he stopped at my office and got a gun and then wanted to go chase
the car that had been following him, but I guess they lost you or something.
Now he didn't know if this was the government or who it was, but somebody
was following him...
Q: This was roughly what time period? Roughly.
G: Must have been in April, huh?
Q: And this is before you went on TV?
L: This is after April 7th...
G: It was before you went on TV though?
Q: And before the time that someone took a shot at you?
L: Right. Right.
JUNE 20, 1989
L: And just to update us, right here... it says "Dr. John drops us" on the
20th of June... so, I guess there were a lot more visits than I had imagined
to him... but that's when that event actually does happen.
G: Also, even though it's not any place on the calendar, before Tracy moved
out, he got his paycheck... now remember he was on call and so he might work
one week... you know, five working days... over the course of a month or a
month and a half... depending what time frame he was in... he got his
paycheck... and he was going to skim the paycheck and not tell Tracy,
because he had some electronic equipment he wanted to buy... so he got his
paycheck and he showed me... and it was like nine hundred and fifty or nine
hundred and seventy bucks... because I presumed a senior staff physicist
would make more than that... wouldn't you? You know, you've got to go to
school a long time... do a lot of things... and this guy isn't even making a
grand a week as a senior staff physicist and I remember being curious about
that and so that is when he received his paycheck and it was in one of those
envelopes like... remember now... this wasn't critical because nobody knew
he was going to get kicked out of the program... he thought there'd be many
more paychecks... so it's not like I said, please, let me see the envelope
and memorize it... but if I remember right, wasn't it like one of those
brown Department of Treasury type envelopes?
L: It was a big check... I remember that... I don't remember what the...
G: (UNCLEAR)... the golf tournament...
G: But he did get a paycheck during that time... I mean, I didn't really
look at it... all I remember is musing about the amount, cause I thought
he'd be making more money.
Q: What did you think when he was shot at?
G: I thought it was big trouble... naturally... he had left my office and,
in the mean time, I had left my office... I got home and there was this
message on my answering machine in this real neurotic... nervous... scared
Q: He was on his way over to John Lear's?
G: I don't know... why would you be going to John Lear's?
L: To do the interview with George? To do the satellite link-up with George.
G: Yeah, but I met you up... we went over to Lear's together... because,
well, Tracy was at Lear's. Me and Tracy sat outside the van...
L: Oh, really?
G: We just used Lear's parking lot... was Lear even there?
L: This is such a blur to me...
G: Lear's got like a commercial parking lot in front of his house... I
recall Marilee (sp?) being there... I don't recall John being there. Because
here's the thing, Tracy, as you saw, is a very attractive young woman and
she was trying to get into some modeling... she's too short... too much of a
Munchkin to be a classic model... but certainly a great looking face... and
Marilee Lear... she's a casting agent for bit parts is what she does now...
for Lear Casting for movies that are shot here in Nevada... then, or she
probably still does, she helped people get into modeling... she was like an
agent... wasn't she?
G: So she... Tracy was using Marilee to try and get some photographic
modeling jobs... for face shots and stuff like that... and I don't even
recall John being there... but I do remember Jan Jones was there... who's
now the mayor of Las Vegas... Jan Jones was there because...
L: She was going to buy their horse...
G: She was into horses and Marilee was showing Jan Jones a horse and Frank
was the camera man in that van... I don't even recall John being there. And
Frank and you were in the van and Tracy and I stood outside of the van while
you did the silhouette thing...
L: That's right...
G: So somehow... however that went down... you and Tracy and I ended up back
here together and went to Lear's parking lot together. Because it had to be
a remote place, you know.
Q: Take me back a day or two before that... to the shooting incident.
G: I mean, I don't recall much about it, other than he was getting on the
Q: Was it the same day as...
JUNE 21, 1989
L: I believe that was on June 21st.
G: It wasn't the same day... was it? Did you get shot and interviewed the
Q: You went to the hotel after you were shot.
L: Yeah, I think... didn't I? Didn't that happen the same day?
G: I don't remember.
L: It was only four years ago...
G: Five years ago now...
Q: There was a message on your machine...
G: With him saying that they had shot his tire out and then you did
disappear for a while... did you go to a hotel then, is that what happened?
G: Well, then I don't think you went on TV the same day your tire was shot
out... cause somehow you and Tracy and I got together and went to Lear's
L: Where was I going then?
G: When... what do you mean when?
L: When I got shot...
G: You were probably coming from my office and heading back on...
L: I know... but that is not the normal trip back... there was something
specific that was happening just that day.
G: Right... cause you got on going north.
G: But that wouldn't have been to Lear's house... from my office to Lear's
house you would have gone east.
L: That's right.
G: And you had to meet up with me and Tracy somewhere. So I don't know where
you were going. You're right... you wouldn't normally get on 15 north...
because you'd be begging for a traffic jam...
L: Unless I was going to meet you guys back here?
G: That might have been it.
L: 'Cause that's the way I would've gone.
G: Because the tire was shattered... there were no slugs or anything... I
mean, later, right about that time was when we learned about (UNCLEAR)
safety slugs... remember?
G: But again, I remember as a third party, but things were still a little
wierd with him and Tracy. Cause even now I know she had an affair and
they're going to a counselor and so I wasn't trying to dig into their
personal lives... I was just trying to be a friend on the light side of
things... and I was also trying to learn and have Bob tell me more UFO stuff...
Q: But he was shot at...
Q: Did you tell him to go to the police?
G: No, I didn't.
L: I don't think anyone did... I think the only person that did was...
G: Because if there wasn't a slug in the tire or anything, you could never
convince the cops... that's not a normal thing... you could never convince
the cops you didn't have a blow out... then what are you going to tell them?
Well, would anyone have an occasion to shoot at you? Yeah. Who? Well, you
see I worked on flying saucers and secret agents are chasing me... so it was
literally that more than...
Q: So, shortly after that you went on TV.
L: Yeah, whatever date that was.
G: Now, backing up a bit... did you tell him about the time you and Dennis
went to the police station?
Q: Nope, haven't heard about that.
Q: Time frame for that incident is...?
L: Oh, boy...
G: Well, you said the police... I presume you're wondering could there be a
record of any of this stuff. And he did go to the police station with Dennis
Marrianni (sp?) one time.
L: That's when I was still going there... so we're talking a time frame...
this is back, right after the Russians left.
G: That's not on there... cause when I did the whole thing on the calendars...
once I wrote out every UFO related event or peculiar looking notes that
would mean nothing to anyone but Bob... and I don't think you ever did mark
L: Oh... what's here... called about guns? Called about guns. It is on here.
G: Holy cow.
L: January 23rd.
G: All right.
L: And go to work is the next day.
Q: And what happened on the 23rd of January?
L: Well, supposedly, what I was told was after the incident with the
Russians, when we made some sort of discovery and kicked them out of the
program, they weren't very happy about it... now, this is all just what I
was being told...
Q: By Dennis?
L: Right. And I was told shortly after that, probably on that day, that one
of the twenty-two that worked on the project up there was now missing. And
what they were doing was issuing sidearms to all the people that were
working up there... I was to get a gun. And it was... I'm trying to remember
how they said it... it was just something I could carry from the airport and
home and it could never go on the plane, it always had to stay at the EG&G
building and come home with me. The following day was on the 24th is when I
went to work and I think that's when they gave me... I don't know what they
gave me... they gave me a little gun and I said, well, I have a gun... ahh...
no, they gave me a gun and they said if I lost it...
G: Five hundred dollars deposit...
G: And you said, this gun doesn't cost five hundred dollars.
G: Why would I pay five hundred dollars if I lose it? This lady was arguing
L: Right. And I said, I have a gun can I just carry that? And forget about
this thing... so, that was agreed upon and they said as long as the thing's
registered... well, I never register anything... so I had to go down and get
the gun registered and with a permit to carry.
G: Yeah, cause your guns were from New Mexico... when he worked at Los
Alamos and he never registered them in the state of Nevada.
L: Right... so I went with Dennis to the police station and the sub-station
down on Eastern...
G: Well... what date was that just for the records?
L: Because... coincidentally we have one of the cops tracing down the paper
G: January 28th? Is that when it was...
L: It's the 24th, 25th...
G: It was the day before your birthday.
G: The 25th... so the guy we know who is the... he's now an investigator for
the District Attorney's Office... I don't know why we never saw it on the
calendar, but anyway, we couldn't remember what date that was... so I gave
him the serial number off Bob's .44 Magnum and he traced back the date to
see when it was registered because we wanted to see if there was any
evidence that Dennis Marrianni had to flip any ID at the police station.
Cause it's pretty important trying to find out what you can about that guy.
So, anyway, he found out that it was the South Sub-station over on St. Louis
Avenue and he went over there to dig around, but a Lieutenant caught him
over there and asked him what he was doing and stuff and he can't... he's
three years in... so he doesn't want to get caught looking at the UFO guy's
records. And, but anyway, so he's trying to dig up what he can on Dennis
Marrianni. Also, when you went over there, remember Dennis went in to speak
with the Desk Sergeant, or whatever, for a few minutes and Bob's sitting out
in the hall and Bob tells me that the Sergeant comes out... some big, fat
Sergeant and says, "So this is the kid the Russians are after."
L: Right. So he had told him...
G: Like somebody as important as me... he's looking at Bob, not knowing that
this kid is working on craft from another star system... like he's big Mr.
Policeman and why would the Russians want this kid and made a copy on the
copy machine... isn't that so?
L: Right... that's exactly right.
Q: So you had the gun...
G: Anyway, in the state of Nevada, your car's an extension of your house, so
you don't need a permit to carry a gun in your car. So he didn't need to get
a permit to carry a gun.
L: Right. Just as long as it stayed in the car.
Q: What did Bob say about Dennis? Or did he ever talk about Dennis?
G: Well, later on, I saw Dennis.
L: Oh, in the hotel.
G: Yeah, right. But he said that he was a very...
Q: Tell me about that incident.
G: These are all such long stories...
Q: No... this is great.
G: Well, I guess this must have come after you went on in silhouette, didn't
L: This was even after...
G: Cause he already called and said...
L: I don't know if I'm right... I think it was after George's big expose...
G: Well, that was in November of '89...
L: Okay, then it wasn't. It was definitely after I was on.
G: Yeah, he was on in silhouette and Dennis was trying to get hold of him
and Joe was in town for the weekend from Los Alamos and Dennis was trying to
set up this meeting with Bob and Joe and I are here... so we think Dennis is
going to be coming over here... so we're setting up all this stuff to bug
the place. Remember... so Joe and I can sit outside...
L: Right outside in your cars...
G: And try and hear what is going on... so Dennis calls and we're here and
Bob's talking and Bob can hear all kinds of reverberation and everything and
says, look, Dennis, this phone sounds funny... what's going on here? Dennis
wants to meet on a personal level... he just wants to talk to him... not in
any official capacity. Dennis says, how about the Sahara Hotel... Bob says
no... cause he was going to say no to whatever place Dennis said... and
however they did it, they settled on the Union Plaza...
L: I said how about something on my side of town.
G: They settled on the Union Plaza downtown and we took that old Toyota I
had... me and Joe and Bob... and we had this plan... and Bob went in before
us... then Joe and I come walking in about a minute later. And Joe and I sit
down and order something to drink and start playing the slot machines...
which we never do. But we're going through slot machines, looking
conspicuous, we don't know where Bob is... and he comes walking back to the
casino area and goes... I don't see Dennis anywhere... and I go... well, why
don't you page him on the phone. He goes over and pages Dennis on the phone
next to the bar. Dennis never answered... you can hear the operator page
Dennis Marrianni... no answer... Bob comes back. So then Bob leaves again,
and this place is packed, so we don't see Bob. Joe and I are sitting
together... well, Bob comes back next time with this strange look on his
face and says... I just saw Dennis and he walked right past me and didn't
acknowledge that it was me. I know he saw me and he wouldn't say anything...
so he said, hey, Dennis, or something like that... didn't you? And Dennis
walks past like he didn't know him. And Bob also said that he thought he saw
another security guy...
L: Before I saw Dennis...
G: Oh, okay... he saw another guy in there before... so then Bob comes back
over and doesn't know what's going on. So Joe stays there to guard that exit
and Bob takes me to the casino... cause now Dennis has gone and sat at a
blackjack table. So we go stealthily in behind the silver slot machine and
he shows me Dennis... There's Dennis, just like he'd always described him...
medium build... military trim haircut... neatly trimmed blond mustache...
blond hair in shape. But something's wierd because then Dennis, he's smoking
a cigar, also, Dennis had two gorgeous babes on either side of him playing
blackjack... wasn't this like on a weekend night? A Friday or Saturday?
G: And so the place is packed... everybody's drinking... Dennis, playing
blackjack, looking at his cards, he's not even looking at the gorgeous babes
flagging him... he's not even looking at the dealer, I mean this guy's
exhibiting unusual behavior for a guy playing blackjack... like he's
paranoid about something. So I stay there and Bob... isn't this when you
walked up to him at the blackjack table?
G: And says, Dennis, what the fuck is this? What's going on? You wanted to
meet out here... now, let's talk. Dennis again doesn't acknowledge his
existence and he comes walking back over and now Bob walks around the
blackjack table, down this other bar, just on the other side, and I'm
watching Dennis from behind. Now Dennis is facing like I am... Bob walking
there... and I'm back over there behind Dennis... and now Dennis, after not
looking up, not looking at the dealer, not looking at the beautiful women
flagging him, now, the only thing Dennis has looked at is he follows Bob as
Bob walks down... and I see that... which shows me that Dennis knows who Bob
is... and then, Bob walks all the way back around and comes behind the slot
machines. We're hiding and we're formulating a plan and we look back out and
now Dennis is gone.
L: It was truly like a "Twlight Zone" episode...
G: He dematerialized. And we looked towards all the exits and the johns and
we hurry and run, trying to go toward any exits because the plan was...
let's at least get this guy's license plate. You know, what I mean, let's
follow him to the parking lot and find out the plate on the car he's driving.
We couldn't find him anywhere in the casino... he wasn't by any exits...
finally we just walked back to where Joe was and told him what happened and
we just left. And I guess you never heard from him again?
L: No, that was it. It was almost like something big was going to happen and
it all diffused in front of our eyes.
G: He saw the guy from S4... there is the possibility that Dennis was trying
to meet him on a personal level... to go... hey, man, this is what's going
to happen... but see Dennis would have to have known that his phone was
tapped. I just don't know how that story exactly went... could Dennis have
not known the other S4 guy was there? And the other S4 guy was watching
Dennis trying to get together with Bob? I don't think anybody's got the
solution to that.
Q: It would make sense to me that Dennis arranged to meet so that Dennis
might point Bob out to someone else.
G: Oh, I see. Oohh, that's spooky, I never thought of that angle.
L: Well, whatever the initial intention was... that's how everything
Q: What other dates do we have that we haven't hit yet?
L: We kind of left off at... "Told Tracy the secret"... who knows what that
Q: We're in July, now?
L: No, June... June... seems like the shooting incident took place on the
Q: 21st of June was the shooting incident?
L: That's what it seems like. Right now.
G: But that would have been after you were on in silhouette.
L: The only reason I say that is because it says 280 Z dies. I dont know...
G: Yeah, but I don't know if... cause remember you and Tracy were without
vehicles and all mine were broken, too, and I borrowed Reg and Sherry, my
friends, van and we were using it for photo deliveries and everything. And
Tracy was still here cause she took it on deliveries. Of course that doesn't
confirm anything about chronological order... it's just that George says
that you were on in silhouette in May... in fact I've got the tapes of that
newscast, but it doesn't say the date on it.
L: Okay... it's certainly possible.
JULY 1, 1989
L: "Desert Blast" is on July 1st...
G: But it's pretty important whether or not you got shot at before or after
you went on in silhouette.
L: Yeah, I'm positive I got shot at before. I know I got shot at before.
G: Because this was like a warning not to do it.
L: Right, I'm positive it was before... I just don't know the dates.
G: Oh, I thought... I don't know...
Q: Now, you were encouraging Bob to do this... or was John Lear...
G: To do what?
Q: To go on TV. Who was telling Bob to...
L: He did... I mean, you did, didn't you?
G: Well, I mean at this point I wasn't really encouraging him to do anything,
because I thought they might kill him. I do remember... after... you're
right... you got shot at before you went on...
L: I know it...
G: You did... because that was a determining factor. You know what I mean...
that's when you said, hey, fuck it! Cause I remember when George called and
asked if you'd go on and you said yeah and I said... you're shitting? I mean,
this guy was going to go on TV and I thought, what a ballsy move.
Q: Now help me here with something? When George called... who did John Lear
tell George Knapp...
L: John Lear I think was the first contact to George.
Q: So John told George... call Bob Lazar.
L: I don't know how he got in touch with me? I know it started out...
G: See now that Lear knew... Lear was starting to blab... the tape of when
we were out there with Lear was the joy of Lear's life, at this point in
time. So, yeah, Lear was trying to (UNCLEAR), cause Lear wanted everybody to
go... ah ah... John Lear... I said it... I showed you... I changed the world.
So he was the conduit to George Knapp. I don't know how it happened, but
George Knapp called and out of the blue Bob said yes that he would go on
television and I couldn't believe it. Which was really exciting because now
we knew they're been life here from somewhere else and the hardware and
everything... and this was a thrill because now Bob was going to go on the
news and tell everybody. So it was thrilling...
Q: And he interrupted the evening news with this.
G: Well, it was a live... George hosted the "Live at Five"...
L: It was like a satellite...
G: I just recently got the whole tape dubbed from George on VHS if you'd
like to see it.
Q: Course I would.
G: Of Bob in the van... not his story on TV... I actually got him in the van
Q: I think I have a copy of that... I think I do.
G: I don't think you have a copy of this... but you've got a copy of that (UNCLEAR)...
or you might have a copy of the broadcast. I mean, I got George's tape that
wasn't ever aired... the tape taken inside the van...
Q: Oh, I'd love to see that.
L: We started shooting practice...
G: Did we?
L: Shortly thereafter, yeah.
Q: You went to a range to shoot?
L: Yeah... everything happens at the drylake bed.
G: Because I could shoot the UZI really well and I couldn't hit the
broadside of a barn with the .44 Magnum, which was the gun I had.
Q: Now, after you went public, Gene what did you feel like? After Bob went
G: I was excited... I thought it was the coolest thing that ever happened. I
L: I want to see if I can find the calendar after this...
G: I wondered where it would go from there... now see he did it, and
although all the UFO fans think Bob did them a big favor to prove the
government cover-up... he really did do it for selfish reasons... because he
doesn't care... sincerely does not care about UFO nuts... people... he did
nothing for them... even though it kind of looked like that, he did it for
him to kind of force their hand and, also, around the time, for safe keeping,
George Knapp and Brian Franklin (?), the cameraman, came here and did a
video tape... which we now call the Bob Chronicles, which was just for safe
keeping... not for anything, just in case they were going to get Bob because
he went on in silhouette... we now had a tape with Bob saying everything on
camera... and this is when George Knapp's boss gave him permission to go
ahead and do the UFO special, which George ended up winning the UPI
Individual Achievement Award for for 1990... but George did that UFO special
and Bob still, a month before the broadcast, did not give George permission
to use anything of him in there... because Bob did not do it to become a UFO
star... he did it to protect himself. Do you remember what made you decide
to go on that George UFO clip?... Anyway, I remember...
L: Do you remember the fight in the editing room with George's boss?
G: I remember George coming here and Bob going... how's the UFO Special
going? And George is drinking beer, cause George can drink beers like shots
and not get drunk, you know what I mean, there are people just like that...
George goes... without you I've got no UFO Special. And finally Bob broke
down and said, okay... I don't know what caused him to do that... cause this
is one where he goes... this is Bob Lazar... so then George got to edit in
all this Bob Lazar... so how he did it was it was Sweeps Week and so the
first four nights, and this was excellent, you saw "UFO's The Best Evidence",
Q: Umm hmm...
G: Okay... the nightly news clips were even better... they edited that into
a two hour "UFO'S The Best Evidence" to be shown as a package... as a
presentation, but that was just a compilation of nightly segments over the
course of like eight or nine nights on the news... ten or fifteen minutes
every night... and so the first four nights, he did one great job showing
people basic UFOlogy... well, through history, and you go back, in the Bible
and this and this and this and this... all the way up and in the '40's and
'50's and then quotes from generals and ex-presidents and here's what the
Mormon Church thinks and here's what the Catholic Church thinks...
NOVEMBER 11, 1989
L: By the way, if I can insert something there... November 11th is when that
special started... my segment aired on Friday the 10th.
G: Right. Okay, so that's exactly right... and so then, he's setting them up
for the big boom and the big ratings... on Thursday night... they're going
into tomorrow night and we're going to reveal this man and they show the
clip of him in silhouette from May and now they've got everybody in Las
Vegas... they got the biggest share ever of anything ever in Las Vegas on
that Friday night five o'clock... or six o'clock news show... whatever it
was... and that was the night that revealed this Bob Lazar...
Q: What happened after that?
G: Oh, Jesus, the switchboards went absolutely crazy... the public response
was unbelievable... George probably received hundreds of phone calls a day
for weeks and weeks if not months. Because he continued the next week...
they introduced Bob on Friday and then on Monday... they've got more of
Bob... well, here's what happened... he was flown out there... and the blue
bus... and, you know, the story... and then Tuesday they had Lane Khak(?)...
did you tell him anything about Lane...
G: That was in "UFO's The Best Evidence"... you saw him, the hypnosis
Q: Umm hmm.
G: Well, that was Lane and they interviewed me, but anyway... it went on the
next week... they used Bob Friday and then Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday
they told his whole story and backed it up with other people surrounding him
and stuff and that program has been bootlegged around the world.
L: It was a great program.
Q: When was the polygraph?
L: Polygraph... I saw both of them right here.
OCTOBER 10th, 1989
L: The first polygraph was October 10th... that was with the guy that wanted
to be on "Donahue"... and the second one was on October 17th. Look at this...
it says "evidence" on the... a good reason to...
Q: What does that say?
L: It says "they took this as evidence". This was during the...
L: Yeah. The brothel.
Q: Wait a minute... the dates for the brothel incident were?
L: I guess it starts here... Friday the 13th.
Q: Was it?
L: Yeah. That's an amazing coincidence. It says "raid" and it says "calendar
gone" the next day, cause I had to fill this stuff in afterwards. And that
was the best fireworks show ever, for some reason.
G: By the way, they're trying to make those hypnosis regressions with Lane...
and Lane's still here in town if you'd like to talk to him...
Q: Tell me about that?
L: Well, you can tell him... I was under hypnosis...
G: But it wasn't like these UFO things... Bob had total consciousness and
memory recall of everything...
L: I was trying to remember exactly... the exact wording...
G: He was describing gravity waves...
L: And redraw some of the schematics and other things that I had...
G: It wasn't anything like they portrayed it... and Bob went back and they
made him remember... he had total memory of everything... he wanted to get
him to relax... cause, you can imagine... he was taken to that briefing room
for random amounts of time to look through the most exciting information
anybody with any brains could ever see and absorbed a lot of it as it ended
up... he was able to remember a lot of it... but that's what he went for...
it wasn't to remember... it's not like he had no recall and went there...
and oh, that's right, I worked on flying saucers...
G: John Lear was on a TV program one time and Lane said that it sounded like
they used a thing called the Orion Response on Bob... because Bob said, they
were slamming fingers in his chest... and shouting in his ear and
threatening him and pointing guns at his head and everything and so Lear
goes on TV... it was "On the Record" with George Knapp and goes... yeah, I
know this scientist and it's a strange thing, when he goes to work there,
they're able to turn him on and make him remember everything and then when
he goes home... they turn him off and he goes home and he can't remember
anything that happened... and they used this secret government thing called
the Orion Response... the Orion Response was actually advertised in the
Yellow Pages under hypnotherapist... but this is a John Lear story. And
there are a hundred thousand people who would believe that you could take a
scientist to work, like a robot, and turn him on and off... and this was the
kind of stuff... so, Lear takes a little thing that Lane said, hey, it
sounds like they might have used the Orion Response on him... which
everybody in hypnotherapy knows about... Lear turns it into a super secret
government thing that only he knows about.
Q: Did anything come of the Khak business? The hypnosis?
L: Yeah, I did recall a lot more specifically... as far as... I drew exact
layouts of how things were... and I got the days separated... at least back
then... wherever those dates are now. And I tried to remember exact wording
in the briefings...
G: And that 115 was activated...
L: Yeah... exactly how... I wanted all the physics down without any errors
and it was a lot for me to remember, but specifically how the decay went
with 115... just some of the specifics...
G: Oh and the stuff on externally corrected evolution and that stuff...
Q: What's externally corrected evolution?
G: Don't look at me like that?
L: No, I'm just saying... go ahead... you started it...
G: Well, (UNCLEAR)... that he read in the reports... that man was a product
of externally corrected evolution and that man is a species that's been
genetically altered sixty-five times.
L: I mentioned that to you before.
Q: Umm hmm... okay.
L: No, I laughed and gave you a look because you say externally corrected
evolution and it flows off your tongue like a common thing.
G: That's true. Which started me on years of reading, by the way. I mean I'm
still on that.
Q: But that was from the files?
L: Right. So, basically, the only thing we got from Lane was just
remembering things more specifically... mainly the physics and you need
everything verbatim that way... cause, as you well know, one or two
characters out of place or something and everything goes down the tubes. So
that did help to some degree... we took notes and...
G: When I say that he was in control under hypnosis... was Lane would get on
some subject, because Tracy and I were there one or two times and then just
me and then me and George and Brian... he actually wanted to televise it
originally... not televise it... video tape it... and, so, I passed Lane a
note, because when Bob would be talking about things that happened, like
he'd be talking about a guy out there named Rene and I would pass Lane a
note... saying "last name"... so he would ask Bob, did you see a last name
on a name tag... but, anyway, he'd get on some subject and Bob would say,
I'm not suppose to talk about that. In other words, even under hypnosis, he
wouldn't let it... it was kind of wierd.
L: So that's really all that happened with Lane and then really kind of
everything wound down from then. Until the brothel thing happened.
G: Yeah, UFO's backed down (?) after they saw that Lane story... because no
one set Lane up... Lane didn't know what was coming... he starts to regress
Bob and Bob's talking about discs... and Lane thinks he's saying desks. And
poor Lane... we later became friends with Lane... and finally Lane realized
this guy's talking about flying discs... which was a big revelation to him...
because Lane was an innocent bystander... he was not briefed... he didn't
know anything... just that Bob was going to try and remember some things...
so Lane had trouble knowing what direction to go and we'd pass him notes.
Q: Let's talk for a minute... pure speculation... if they still might be
L: Not there.
G: D.J., the guy we told you about who was the D.A.'s investigator who
looked up the thing about the gun... there's a computer guy back in Virginia
and he had... I don't know how he does it... but he gets on these computers
and found a list of people working at national labs in technical positions
and this and that... and the guy who indoctrinated him was Barry Castillo...
Q: Spell Castillo...
L: Castillio or something like that...
G: Well, anyway, we have him... so this guy back east sends us a FAX saying
he's found a Bartollo Castillio... because Barry and Castillio don't really
go together... so he finds a Bartollo, which sounds better together, working
at San Dia (?) Labs in New Mexico... this is present day, now... and so with
the guy's work telephone number... with the guy's home address and telephone
number... now the only way to find out if that's the Barry is to have Bob
identify him... but anyway, the curious thing is... D.J., the guy at the
District Attorney's office, runs Bartollo Castillio in New Mexico and the
guy does not have a driver's license in New Mexico... nor does he have any
license plates there... and this is the guy that we got the address on that
says he works at San Dia Labs and he does that without a car or without a
driver's license in the state of New Mexico...
Q: So, he's from out of state?
G: Well, I guess... that's as far as it's got... there's no sense in going
any further unless we can have Bob... where does he live... Santa Fe?
G: Alberquerque... that's right... unless Bob can I.D. this guy. Oh, my
point here is that, we speculated that it's not probable that Barry was in
training Bob and he was in that deep and they go... okay, your position
here's over and now we work you to go work on this stuff down in San Dia...
and considering that the whole Stealth Wing moved into New Mexico and
considering that Bob told everybody that the disc program was in central
Nevada... and yet this Bartollo Castillio...
L: After that... after all that stuff happened, there was a big movement of
stuff to New Mexico, including the Stealth planes... it seemed as though
there was just a blitz...
G: It's a possibility that the discs are in New Mexico... you said speculate...
and that's purely speculative...
L: But from what we've heard, anyway, and DiaMatto, who supposedly took a
flight around there... and Congressman Bilbrae (?) helped try and get my
records from the FBI, you know, wrote letters back and forth, because he
didn't accept the answers that they were giving either... so supposedly they
did take a flight around there and then there's apparently nothing left of
the area... if they did take them to the right place.
G: Now DiaMatto wasn't necessarily bright enough... I wouldn't even believe
that he was at (UNCLEAR) drybed... I don't know Bilbrae, I presume he's an
intelligent man, because he's a Congressman, but DiaMatto was a babe in the
woods... this guy, he might be a (UNCLEAR) investigator, but he was not very
bright and I would not even believe that he knew if that was the place... so
I wouldn't take his word, but the two of them allegedly took a helicopter
flight around there... they couldn't find any evidence of a base there...
Q: When did they do that... when did they take the flight...
L: Just recently...
L: Just recently... and, though the roads and what not still remained, but
they all just deadend and disappear now...
Q: And there reason for going there in the newspapers or in the press was
G: Well, it wasn't a high profile thing... Billbrae was on the Defense
Committee, or whatever it is, in Congress... DiaMatto was actually sent out
because Senator Byrd, John Glenn and so other guys were getting so much
pressure from their constituents because of Bob Lazar... this story made it
around the world and the Lazar tapes got out and got bootlegged all over the
place and, you know, people started pressuring their congressmen and stuff,
and so these senators don't want to go on the record yea or nay about
anything and it also rubs their ego, because they feel there being one
hundred guys in the senate... especially the guy, you know, Sam Nunn... and
guys like that... need to know what's going on and if that, kid, in their
words, is telling the truth and this is going on... and if not through the
normal chain of commands... if this stuff is going on... where are they
getting the money? They want to find the money trail... and, in addition to
the disc program, all the projects of ROARDA (?), our new spy plane, they
can't find the money trail for it... the Air Force says it doesn't exist...
yet people have heard it...
Q: It's funded by the CIA... it's always been that way...
G: People have seen it... actually the word under the table, which came from
John Andrews at the Testor Corporation, his suggestion... and his
suggestions are pretty good, by the way, is the way it works is... they have
a deal with Saudi Arabia and places like that... that they jack up the price
of oil... and, by the way, that's why we defend Kuwait and Saudi Arabia and
places like that... and they actually get a kick-back from those oil
countries so they don't have to get that from the budget and, also...
L: I've never heard this...
G: Oh, you've heard this... then the research and development... if Lockheed,
for instance, is doing research and development, and they don't have to do
it for the United States, they can do research and development under the
guise of doing it for Saudi Arabia, as long as they notify the United States
government... we are doing this research for them... so, therefore, they can
get kick-back money by allowing oil prices to be raised and doing R&D under
the guise of doing it for a foreign government by notifying the United
States government and therefore the United States government cannot audit
their budget and can honestly say we don't know anything about it.
Q: I don't know if that's true, or not, but it's common knowledge that the
U2 and the SR71 were CIA funded and those funds were not subject to
congressional... not audit... I'm looking for another word... congress
wasn't involved... and I would imagine that there's the same mechanism today.
So that's great... they went out to Papoose Lake and flew around in the
helicopter and didn't see anything.
G: But that kind of activity has been going on forever...
L: Well, first of all, if what was going on there, when I was there, was
still going on... a bi-budget (?) investigator and a congressman are not
going to fly over Papoose Lake bed... that's not going to happen... that's
absolutely impossible... so, I think things were moved way before '93 and,
in fact, Jim, who worked at the Tonapa, before he left, already saw... he
saw himself designation areas as S4 between the S4 that I worked at but at
Tonapa... and construction and what not going on... so, wherever it had
moved, I'm convinced it moved... and I think they were more than happy to
bring people in to show them what was going on... it was just to take the
G: In fact, when Peter...
L: See, there's nothing...
G: ... Billbrae or DiaMatto... one of them, when they went up there...
L: But there's a road... you can drive three 18 wheelers on side by side...
but there's nothing there...
G: It was like a Lieutenant Colonel, I guess he met DiaMatto, or was it
Billbrae, anyway, he tells him that he wants to go to Papoose Lake and they
said... so you've been talking to Bob Lazar, huh? You must remember this?
G: I don't know which one it was... was it DiaMatto or Billbrae...
L: Well, when you said that I just tuned out... because I remember the thing...
the CIA guy that Andrews talked to or something in Washington... remember...
and they started talking about Papoose... do you remember the rest of the
G: No, I don't know that one...
L: 'Cause I don't either... it was along the same lines...
G: But, anyway, when DiaMatto or Billbrae, one of them, went out there... a
Lieutenant... it might have been Billbrae, because a Congressman... a
Lieutenant Colonel met him and when he said he wanted to go to S4, the guy
actually mentioned Bob Lazar's name. He didn't say S4... he said, I want to
go to Papoose Lake and he said, so you've been talking to Bob Lazar, huh?
Oh, and that's right, the first time DiaMatto came out, there was a white-out...
it snowed all over the place up in central Nevada... so there was no air
traffic up or back...
L: That was his surprise visit.
L: He came out to surprise everyone... this was the first visit by any
civilian, essentially, out there... so he came up and he said, okay, I want
to go up to S4 and they said... we can't... it's white-out conditions... we
can't take you up there... so he had to wind up going back to Washington.
G: And the next time, they said, we'll take you up there, but you aren't
going to find anything. That's what they said and we thought, wow, that's
really confident to say... we can take you up there, but you aren't going to
find anything. But, anyway, that was the DiaMatto sneak visit and there was
a white-out. So, by the way, just so you know a little chronology here, the
sneak visit... wasn't that sneak of a visit, because we met with him before
the Gulf War started and then the Gulf War started and went and ran its
course and DiaMatto came out what... eighteen months or two years later for
the surprise visit... so...
Q: You both met with DiaMatto?
G: And George Knapp. But (UNCLEAR -- several voices speaking at once)...
accommodations over at Nellis Air Force Base... George checked him out in
Washington, D.C.... George went to Washington, D.C. to get his UPI award and
he checked DiaMatto out whie he was there... and DiaMatto's the real thing...
what I'm saying is... DiaMatto came out and did not give his surprise visit
till two years later... so they knew he was coming eighteen months or two
years in advance... cause the whole Gulf War had happened and wound down and
was over before he ever came back... which was a valid excuse... he had
other things to do...
Q: That's a great story. Roads that just end... nothing there.
L: Anybody hungry?
Q: Let's go get something to eat.
L: You feel like getting something to eat?
(START OF TAPE 7 -- SIDE B -- NOTE: DISTORTED SOUND)
G: ... now to me... it sounded like a guy trying to influence Jon Farhat
into hiring him to make sure he didn't have any trouble.
Q: Really? Well, I think, that the easiest way for... if there are problems
with the story... really the easiest way for them not to make a big deal out
of it is to let it go... the stupidest thing someone could do would be to
try and stop it.
G: However, movies, as you well know, I'm sure, mean a lot because the
legacy of the story of JFK to our children will be the movie, "JFK"...
Q: I hope not.
G: It will be. That tends to be the general influence...
L: Well, that's kind of sad... that is... but... ah...
Q: Should we go in one car?
(MACHINE TURNED OFF AND BACK ON -- DIFFERENT SETTING)
G: When we were outside of Area 51 one night... and, here's the thing, Bob
compartmentalizes information, so he was telling me stuff... Joe stuff...
Jim stuff... maybe Lear stuff... but I never questioned... we never had a
big old meeting... and I didn't know what they knew... and they didn't know
what I knew... and I felt just fortunate to know what I knew... now a couple
years ago, he told me that the reason I ended up knowing more than everyone
else... because other than Lear, which he didn't give that much information
to, his other friends, who knew him longer... his older friends, Joe and Jim,
didn't ask him. But, anyway... which I find strange, if you had a friend
that could answer those kind of questions, would you do anything but
question him? But anyway... we were driving out there and Lear goes... you
know how many aliens are here? And I said, you mean, how many do I know are
here or how many do I know you think are here... and he takes that as an
insult... and then he proceeds to tell us that we can't remember if it's one
billion or two billion...
L: No, how many aliens are living in the mountains that lie along side of
the road? And we think he's joking. But he's serious. And I said, no, John,
how many. I'd say it was a billion, but...
G: It was either one or two billion... who cares... let's say a billion...
L: There's a billion in there. In these mountains alone.
G: And we said, now do they just live on Highway 15 or over on Highway 95...
L: And he got so pissed off... he really believed...
G: This guy expected us to believe there were a billion aliens living in the
mountains that line the highway on the way up to Area 51...
L: It was great... it was absolutely great.
(MACHINE TURNED OFF AND BACK ON)
G: Anyway, he's over in Laos, when we're not supposed to be in Laos... he
flies cargo in there and they go to sleep in these tents and he's going to
bed for the night and Lear goes to bed and he starts to fall asleep and he
hears a KABLAAAMMM like a bomb goes off and he gets up and he thinks this is
the end... he thinks they're being bombed and this is it... they're all
going to die... but he looks out and across the way there are a bunch of
other pilots out there and there's a light out there and they're playing
games... they're throwing knives against this wooden building for money...
they're gambling and throwing knives at a target... and he lays back down
and all of a sudden KABLAAAMMM, it happens again, and Lear is scared to
death... he's shaking, but he doesn't know what to do and he doesn't want to
act like a big sissy... cause these guys are out there throwing knives. So
this goes on all night and he doesn't get any sleep and he gets up in the
morning... trying to act macho and he goes to take a shower and stuff and
the subject of the loud explosions come up and this is when he finds out
that those were outgoing shells... and those were the guns going off... and
that's why the other guys weren't worried and throwing knives and he thought
they were being bombed on... So they gave him the award of the Laos chicken,
wasn't it... or something like that?
G: He got a ribbon with it...
L: That's a John Lear story.
G: ... it was equivalent to the woman from Venus in his eyes... he's just
the funnel... he takes everything and doesn't qualify or anything and he
just spits it back out... and when someone proves it to be absolutely false...
Lear says, I'm sorry. And he thinks that's okay. Now most people in the rest
of the world don't... but Lear's misinformation is not malicious... he's a
numbskull... he's a knucklehead... he could play Curly on the Three Stooges...
but he doesn't look like that... even his house... this guy lucks out...
they've got a house... you know, I did an appraisal on his house... that's
how we got all the original UFO... five hundred thousand dollars... he's got...
it's on 2.2 acres that (UNCLEAR) on Hollywood Boulevard that have off on
Sunrise Mountain and there's a whole view of the valley... the nighttime
view is breathtaking... things are a lot cheaper here than down where you're
from... I think it's only worth about five hundred and fifty thousand now...
he's got 2.2 acres... the main house is a two story stucco/tile, pretty
nicely decorated inside... it's forty-four hundred square feet... then in a
U-shape around the pool, there's a seventeen hundred square foot two bedroom/two
bathroom with a fireplace guesthouse...
Q: Jesus... I should live here...
G: You should... a seven hundred and twenty square foot one bedroom
kitchenette/one bath studio, which is next to the four car garage around the
pool and behind it is a tennis court and a corral with a tack room in it...
and that's all...
Q: Five hundred and fifty thousand dollars?
G: Well... anyway, so, this is all on... there's eight/tenths of an acre
behind that... all that good stuff I just described is on 1.4 acres and it's
2.2 acres total... he's got his own wall, everything... so I don't know how
they found out about this, but this house belonged to a highroller gambler...
there were first, second and third mortgages on it and he went under and
they foreclosed on it...
Q: What does that tell you about highrollers?
G: Yeah... so Lear bid three hundred and thirty thousand bucks on this house...
I don't know where he was going to get that...
L: From his mom...
G: Oh, okay... so he bids it and they turn it down... so all these
mortgagers foreclose on it and it comes back for an auction at the bank...
Lear is the only one that shows up at the auction... he bids a hundred and
seventy-five thousand and they take it. He had already offered three thirty
and they turned it down... he goes to the auction, only one there and bids
one seventy-five... they take it and the land was worth more than one
seventy-five... so this knucklehead gets this 2.2 acre estate for a hundred
and seventy-five thousand dollars. I mean it's the best real estate deal
I've ever seen...
(END OF TAPE SEVEN)
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